"Eric Takabayashi" <etakajp@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
news:41847169.218FCCF1@yahoo.co.jp...
> FreddieN wrote:
>
> > Firstly lets clarify what you just said. I am "anti-Chinese".
>
> Is that an admission, or are you asking me for evidence?

I am restating what I believe you said, so that I can clarify this point.

>
> > I am not especially "anti-foreigner in the US".
>
> Is this a partial admission?

Opinions in general are often not black and white absolutes, so if you wish
to interpret this
as a "partial" anything that's fine. As to whether it should be an
"admission" as in "admission
of guilt" I do not know.


> > I did use that an an example and frankly the jury is still out on this
as far
> > as my personal opinion is concerned. But you needed to be here in the US
from
> > before 911 to see just how much the US government and the publics
attitude
> > has changed towards not only illedgal aliens but even legal aliens as
well.
>
> In Iraq, near 100% of criminals, terrorists or insurgents are Iraqi, or at
> least Middle Eastern or Muslim. It still has not excused US troops from
> treatment of other locals or detainees not accused of offenses, which is
why as
> you note, US authorities making openly anti-black statements in mass
media, or
> promoting anti-black campaigns as Japanese may do against Chinese, would
not
> fly. Prejudice against black people is already bad enough. The same goes
for
> other minorities or foreigners, or those who belong to a different
religion.
>
The US has a history of institutionalized racism. And, the US has a history
of social awareness
and laws designed to correct that. The US is a country made up of
immigrants, and as a result
it's pretty hard make a blanket anti-anything statement. Japan, as you are
well aware, does not share
this kind of history. In fact, whereas the US has had a white-black
mentality, the Japanese have
a Japanese-Foreigner mentality. So when the Japanese police talk about
"chinese" they are
talking about aliens, a great numbert of whom are illegals. Taking all this
into account, I think it
really is not fair to compare the Japanese police and their reaction towards
"chinese" and
if any police department in the US made a similar statement about any
specific ethnic group.

> The US surely needs to do more to patrol its borders and transportation
links
> against illegal entry, smuggling and terrorist attacks. But it's no reason
to
> start treating people in the US like Israel treats Palestinians or the way
> Iraqis are treated.
>
Well that's the big problem. And if you can figure out a way to balance our
need for security
and protection from those who wish us harm, and our rights as individuals
and citizens as
protected by our constitution.....maybe you ought to run for office.

> > Americans have for years complained about Japans immigration
authorities.
> > Well we are now photographing and fingerprinting all visitors to the US
even
> > tourists. Soon we will be forcing other countries to re-issue their
passports
> > containing biometric data. The Japanese government, as far as I am
aware, has
> > done nothing to this extent.
>
> You are correct that the Japanese despite all complaints about xenophobia
are
> not being as strict as the US right now. I much prefer being a foreigner
in
> Japan, even an Asian looking one, to being black or Middle Eastern in the
US.
> Even how Japan holds people claiming to be refugees or their tales of
prison
> abuses are not as bad as the American extremes.
>
Unfortunately, I can not disagree with that.

> Still no excuse, at least when against people not guilty or not even
accused of
> crime, which is why I no longer use or tolerate the your country is worse
than
> ours, or fix your country before accusing ours, argument.
>
That's perfectly fine, but I think you are applying the standards thast you
would expect
from your own country to another country which has had a different history
and
experience as a nation.
BTW, while you seem quite offended by the Japandese polices' attitutde
towards
"chinese" it is certainly a far far cry from what our own government did to
Americans of Japanese ancestry during WWII.


> > First lets be clear on who or what I am against. I am against the
Chinese
> > both in and out of China who flood the internet with anti-Japanese
diatribe,
> > much of it going beyond any sort of rational argument but rather a
brainless
> > repetitive dribble. BTW, a great majority of these posters also display
> > anti-US sentiment as well. I have nothing against the many Chinese,
withion
> > China, Hong Kong, Taiwan or anywhere in the world who are against the
CCP and
> > it's oppression of individual freedom.
>
> All right. And what about the greater number of Chinese people who accept
their
> forms of government or politics, but are not the ones expressing hate
against
> the US or Japan?
>
> For example:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5nlyo
>
Those people aren't the ones posting crap on the usenet.
They are the ones who will improve relations between China and Japan.


> Despite the understanding this victim of war has come to, perhaps he
supports
> the Chinese government.
>
> Should we be against people like this man?

Not at all. God bless people like him.
But I will still gladly argue with him about the CCP.

>
> And more about my "dropping a guilt bomb on an entire country", no, that
is not
> my intent. I have no desire for Japanese or Americans to "hang [their
heads] in
> shame" for what their nation or ancestors have done or even are doing. As
a
> matter of fact, people should be proud of their nation, its history and
its
> heritage, whether they be from Japan, China, the US or North Korea.
>
Or the United States.

> But you can see the unprecedented means the Germans have gone to, to
reclaim
> their pride. Japan critics point at Germany as an example of how Japan
could or
> should be about WWII responsibility and compensation.

What the Germans did is just that, what the Germans did. Their history is
not
identical to Japan. Germany didn't become a militant country because of a
fear
of being colonized by European powers.

> We can also see how late 19th century China beggared itself for its wars,
>allegedly paying JAPAN and Western powers seven times its entire annual
economic
> output. Well the same goes for US history and what the US and Americans
could be doing to take
> responsibility for its actions.
>
Well that's what happens when you are a backwards country at the end of the
nineteenth century
facing Western colonialism. And Japan took actions to avoid becoming the
prey herself.
Was it a raw deal for China, yes of course it was. Could it have been worse?
Yes, I'd say what we did to  the Native Americans was worse.

> > These anti-Japanese posters, who harp on WWII and constantly talk about
a
> > re-militarized Japan,
>
> Yes, to be doing nothing but is certainly a problem, the same as with
those
> whose priority is smearing Chinese.
>
There are hardly any people who make a priority out of smearing China..
The great great majority of anything anti-Chinese that you see on the
internet,
is a response to the overwhelming amount of Chinese anti-Japanese and
anti-American
rhetoric.

> What should they be talking about?
>
Not sure. I tried talking to them aout Tibet, and they tell me that Tibet
has always been
historically part of China and I should shut my face.
I tried tallking to them about Independence for Taiwan and they told be that
Taiwan is merely
a runaway province and that I should shut my face.
But you want to know what they talk about? They lioke to talk about how the
ancient
Korean kingdom of Koguryo was actually Chinese, even though nobody but the
Chinese
beliebe this. THey like to talk about how the Ryukkyuu kingdom (Okinawa) has
always
been Chinese, even thouigh the only relationship was that trhey paid a
tribute to the ancient
dynastys as did most all kingdoms and nations in the region.
When I try to talk to them about the fact that they are supporting a vicious
oppressive regime
and that their individual rights are supressed, they tell me to shut my
face.
Hell..if you can believe this...I had one Chinese guy arguing to me that
"communism was a Chinese tradition".

> > are, working against current US policy.
>
> Current US policy promotes a stronger Japan.
>
> > Japan has right-wingers to be sure, just like many other countries, but
the
> > chances of become a militant governmet like that of WWII is slim to
none.
>
> Oh, that. That is for certain.
>
> But does it mean the size of Japan's defense expenditures or the
considerations
> of some officials for Japan to have first strike capability against North
> Korea, or permission for it, for example, should not be a concern?
>
For the Chinese it should be a concern because of the strong US-Japanese
alliance
and the significance that presents as regards issues such as Taiwan.
It should not be a concern because 60 years ago Japan was a military
dictatorship
hell bent on territorial conquest.

> > China today is a far far grteater threat to east asia, as they seem to
have
> > no hesitation in threatening others with the use of military force.
>
> That is true. And on a smaller scale, North Korea is more dangerous than
that.
>
> So why are the US or George Bush identified as the largest threats to
world
> peace in international survey?
>

Because most people are idiots.

> > China has invaded and occupies Tibet. And these Chinese posters still go
on
> > and on about "Japan being a threat". This is nothing but pure hipocracy.
>
> Why are Chinese offenses, even greater ones, any excuse for Japanese
behavior?
>
They aren't. And likewise, Japanese behavior 60 years ago is no excuse
for Chinese behavior today.

> > I could go on and on, but thats ebough for now.
> >
> > > > Eric....no country teaches all of their bad history inschool
textbooks.
> > >
> > > Which is why they should. I hold my own country and others to the
standard
> > I expect of Japanese, and vice versa. When I complain about Japanese
history
> > or treatment of foreigners in Japan, you better be sure I mean the same
about
> > my own country and others.
> >
> > Well as I said...you ought to get back here to the US and see how much
has
> > changed since 911.
>
> What I see in the news or in Hawaii are quite enough.
>
> > You could spend the rest of your life trying to bring the United States
up to
> > "your standards".
>
> Which is again no excuse for the way Americans dismiss their own need for
> taking responsibility for its history or current behavior.
>
> For example, I cannot find the story even with a search of Yahoo! news
> archives, but last week I read a story about how US veterans coming back
from
> Iraq are adjusting to life in college. One young man was talking about how
> people wouldn't understand his experience, so he does not even bother
talking
> about it. He was once put into the situation where he was ordered to kill
a
> man, woman, and child with a loaded donkey, who had not obeyed hand
gestures to
> stop at a checkpoint, if they did not stop beyond a certain point, because
they
> could have had a weapon or a bomb.
>
> Despite me appreciating his service and bravery and understanding how his
life
> could be at risk in Iraq at any time, he is correct that I would not
understand
> what he did in Iraq. For you see, being ordered or following orders to
shoot
> dead a man, woman and child with a donkey for not complying with orders to
> stop, was not the only alternative. After hand gestures or verbal commands
to
> stop, how about pointing your guns and shouting at them? Or shooting into
the
> air? Or shooting just the man or the loaded donkey before also shooting
the
> woman and child?
>
I refuse to play armchair soldier. Sure I an think of as zillion different
scenarios
from the safety of my chair and computer. But hoiw I'd think., how I'd
personally
react to such a situation, I don't think I can ebver know unless I am there.

> I don't care if Iraqi insurgents or Japanese or Germans in WWII would not
or
> did not show the same courtesy to their victims. It is what Americans
would
> expect for themselves and how they should treat others. Varying Iraqi
civilian
> casualty counts range from 10,000 to 100,000, because of large
concentrations
> of civilian populations in cities bombed or attacked in search of
insurgents.
>
> What would be the American reaction to a terrorist group taking out 10,000
US
> civilians, even as "collateral damage" in an attempt to take out a large
> industrial or military site, or an assassination attempt on the President?
>
Eric...we;ve been there done that back in Vietnam.
When you;ve got an enemy that deliberatly mixes into tjhe civilian crowds,
well there are simply going to be a lot of collateral damage.


> > > > We were taught that the pioneers opened up the west to development
while
> > occasionally exchanging hostilities with the "indians". We weren't
taught
> > that we massacred them, unarmed women and children, because our racial
> > beliefs at the time didn't force us to consider that they were humans.
We
> > weren't taught that we invented scalping then claimed that it was an
"indian"
> > practice.
> > >
> > > Then your education was not as complete as mine, as I learned those
things
> > and others, from 7th grade.
> > >
> > Did it occur to you that I probably went to school much earlier thah you
did?
>
> It doesn't matter. You still weren't told.
>
> > > > Why then Eric, did the chinese police in riot gear have to beat up
those
> > anti-japanese chinese people?
> > >
> > > Because China's is an authoritarian government, which will kill or
jail its
> > own people simply for protest.
> >
> > Protest against what Eric? Against government policy. Now can you put 2
and 2
> > together?
>
> No, because in general, Chinese protest against government policy is a
good
> thing, as I am sure you understand. I cannot condemn protest in China,
just
> because some protests are against Japanese.
>
> > > And do you see a problem with it?
> >
> > No, because in both cases above, I hear alot of gripes about things that
are
> > going on now. It's not griping over something that happened 60-70 years
ago
> > and nothing can be done about it now. That's a big difference.
>
> We cannot bring back the dead or restore the environment or a nation's
> heritage, something can most certainly be done about historical
wrongdoings, if
> even only to offer apologies and some money, as was done to
Japanese-Americans
> interned in WWII, or has been done on a private basis with former comfort
> women. Germany continues to make amends, and Switzerland is currently
being
> accused for its involvement holding Jewish assets from WWII.
>
> Why expect anything less of Japan or the US?
>
> > That's right. Being against current Israeli policy has nothing to do
with
> > the past.
>
> Then you are more understanding than posters against me.
>
> > If you refuse to justify the past injustice towards Jews because you
happen
> > to disagree with current Israeli policy, then you should be able  to
> > understand why I cannot condone the current bewhavior of Chinese posters
just
> > because of what some members of the IJA did to some Chinese civilians in
> > WWII.
>
> It is one thing to be against negative posters, which I would certainly
> support. But what do you think of Chinese who do not express hatred toward
> Japan, yet are not against their authoritarian government?
>
In my opinion any Chinedse who is against the CCP government is a Chinese
patriot.
Regardless of their feeling about the Japanese and WWII.

> > > > Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, there are alot of people
out
> > there who happen to agree with her?
> > >
> > > That is not the point. People with Japanese handles are attacked for
what
> > is construed as anti-Chinese comments, while that poster is not getting
the
> > same treatment. At least not from flij posters who would attack and
ridicule
> > people with Japanese handles or who claim to be Japanese. Why is it
> >  acceptable or desirable to attack "Japanese" for alleged anti-Chinese
or
> > Japan war apologist comments, but not other posters who do not appear to
be
> > Japanese? Where is Ernest in all his fury, to attack you or this
Aletheia
> > person, the way he will pick on a Japanese man?
> >
> > Let me understand you here...are you suggesting that Enest and others
display
> > bigotry, a bias in this respect?
>
> That is part of what over a hundred posts last week were about (in
addition to
> noting double standards in views of Japanese or US history) but no
admissions
> were made on their part. And they are notably absent criticizing
anti-Chinese
> comments from people with Western sounding handles now.
>
I see.
Well I can confirm the last part. I say alot of anti-chinese things in that
zoo they
call soc.culture.japan, and I am alwayus arguing with Chinese posters.
No caucasians or caucasian-sounding poster ever gets on my case for some of
the ansurdly racist things I say to Chinese, as a response to their absurdly
racist
things they say about Japanese.

You know, it's going to sound strange coming from an American, but I can
understand why
some Chinese harbor ill feelings about Japan. But any American who parrots
these things,
and argues against Japanese posters (or Japanese sounding posters) is a
hipocryte.
We the Americans were supplying Japan with the scrap metal that was used to
make bombs
that Japan was dropping on China since 1931. After the war, WE lead the
Tokyo War Crimes trials
and protected the Emperor from prosecution, and buried the biological
warfare experiment
results. Hell..we were ready to take over the IJA comfort women system!