"Eric Takabayashi" <etakajp@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
news:4182831D.233BD3F1@yahoo.co.jp...
> FreddieN wrote:
>
> > > Yes, I see a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment from especially Chinese
and
> > Koreans.
> > >
> > > No mystery why.
> >
> > Why is it not a mystery Eric?
>
> Because of Japanese history, and what many modern people think of it, or I
> should say don't think or know about it, and don't want to think or know
about
> it, much less do anything about it.
>
> For example, http://tinyurl.com/5nlyo claims:
>
> One would truly become speechless, if recalls the fact that Japan extorted
a
> phenomenal huge sum of JiaWu War reparation - Treaty of Maguan in 1895
from
> China, i.e. 231 million taels of silver on top of Taiwan, the Pescadores
and
> Liaotung peninsula etc .......
>
> And later in year 1901, nearly bankrupt China also had to pay 450 million
taels
> of silver in 39 years with 4% yearly interest for the Boxer Rebellion war
> indemnity - Boxer Protocol to eight foreign countries i.e. U.S., Britain,
> France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Austria-Hungary, and Japan.
>
> So great vast sum of money for any wealthy nation let alone one as poor as
> China, that much of the money was later earmarked by the U.S. and later
> Britain, for overseas education of Chinese students as Boxer Fellowship,
e.g.
> Chen Ning Yang, a Nobel Prize-winning theoretical physicist for his famous
> Yang-Mills Theory for our current understanding of subatomic particles.
The
> fund later formed the basis of famous China's MIT, Tsinghua University.
>
> Of which Japan got 34.7 million plus interest of 41 million taels of
silver.
>
> China could not pay Japan the phenomenal huge indemnity and had to borrow
money
> from several western countries and paid heavy interest.
>
> Total War Indemnity paid to Japan alone was a staggering capital 265
million
> plus interest 321 million taels of silver (i.e. Total 586 million taels of
> silver in 1895, about 7 times China's annual revenue).
>
> But in vivid contrast, San Francisco Peace Treaty reveals that the
reparations
> matter was merely postponed until Japan has the financial means to pay..
>
> Yet, Japan has been maintaining that no single yen should be paid to any
> Chinese after its own defeat. According to the Japanese military record,
2.8
> million Japanese soldiers were killed during WWII, of which nearly 2
millions
> Japanese soldiers were killed in China.
>
> It is estimated that China's direct and in-direct economic loss due to
Japan's
> 14 years invasion comes to many hundreds of billions, or trillion dollors
if
> interest are included. And the casualties 20 - 30 millions Chinese.
>
> Not to mention large numbers of Korean (9 million), Indonesia (4 million),
> Vietnam (2 million), India (1.5 million), Filippine (1 million), and other
> Asian countries Malaysia, Burma, Thailand, Singapore ..........
>
> [snip]
>
> I see many questionable things on that site, particularly the numbers
involved.
>
> But the point is made: Japan is ONE of the parties (as well as Western
powers
> and Chinese leaders themselves) responsible for the unrest and poverty in
China
> throughout the past century.
>
Agree.

> But what will modern people do about it? Certainly, Japanese do not want
to pay
> direct forms of compensation to China (and don't give me anything about
the San
> Francisco Treaty - if Japan or Japanese wanted to pay anyone for damages
during
> the war, they could pay it of their own free will instead of avoiding
> responsibility hiding behind interpretations of treaties or Japanese court
> rulings).
>

It looks to me like you are dropping a guilt-trip bomb on an entire country.
Every country in
the world "hides" if you like using that word, behind treaties and
interpretations. That's how
"law" is applied everywhere. Do you somehow think that Japan is unique in
this sense?
I suppose I'd take your argument more seriously if and when the US
government, of it's own
free will decides to pay "reparations" to the Native Americans and African
Americans.

> > Just exactly what did young Japanese people today do
> > personally to deserve that kind of racism and hatred?
>
> Such as the soccer players who were booed and had bottles thrown at them
in
> China?
>
> Probably nothing.
>Yes. Nothing.

> But "young Japanese people today" since you care to make it so specific,
aren't
> doing much to rectify the acts of their ancestors either, or to improve
their
> image of Chinese, or understand why many Chinese may feel the way they do.
Nor
> do they understand the handicaps of history that China has to overcome,
when
> looking down upon Chinese for not having the same economy, technology or
> lifestyle as Japanese.
>
Well I don't see to many fellow American friends who particularly feel like
paying "reparations"
to the Native Americans or African-Americans either. And my friends are bad
evil racist
bigotted people at all. In fact I don't see them making any damn effort to
"rectify" the acts
of our ancestors which incidentally makes what the Japanese did to China
look like
nothing,.


> > Didn't Ernest teach you that you can't blame EVERYONE because SOME
people
> > did something very bad? I wish you;d pay more attention to Ernest
because I
> > happen to think he's a very smart person.
>
> I am sure he is. But he did not teach me any of that, because it doesn't
need
> to be taught to me, nor do I blame EVERYONE because of SOME people.
>

Then why do you seem to be laying on a heavy guilt trip onto the whole
country?

> > > > Have you ever noticed that you hardly ever see any such activity by
> > Japanese posters, with the exception of crazy Kaz?
> > >
> > > Yes, I also don't see much anti-Japanese sentiment from Japanese.
> >
> > What is the point of that remark?
>
> The previous poster claimed that Chinese posters spew their anti-Japanese
hate,
> but they hardly ever see any such activity by "Japanese" posters.
>
> I agreed with the previous poster. "Japanese" posters hardly ever spew
> anti-Japanese hate.
>

LOL. ok.

> > My point was that while you see tons of anti-Japanese sentiment from
> > Chinese, you do not see much anti-Chinese sentiment from Japanese.
Surely you
> > caught that, right?
>
> I do not see much of identifiable Japanese posters in English, period.
>
> Now try what you see and hear in Japan (thankfully on the decline recently
> after people have got over their hysteria about lockpicking) regarding
Chinese.
> The blame on the behavior (and attitude) of many Chinese at the soccer
stadium
> was put on the Chinese government and their allegedly anti-Japanese
history
> education, not on the war itself, or what the Japanese did back then, or
the
> lack of progress addressing the war now.
>
Uh...the education methords, near brainwashing, of Maos PROC 1945-1965 is no
allegation.

> > > I do see a lot of anti-Asian or anti-foreigner in general from
Japanese,
> > particularly against Chinese. Even Tokyo Metropolitan Police had
prepared
> > a "If you think they are Chinese, immediately call 110 [police
emergency]"
> > campaign, printing up 700 posters to be distributed to 96 departments.
> >
> > Do you think that the fact that Japan does have a problem with illegal
> > aliens, crime, gangs, etc and that they happen to be mostly illegal
Chinese
> > has anything to do wit the above?
>
> Yes, as in survey, about half of respondents claim their greatest fear is
> foreigners (number two on the list), or that the increase in crime is due
to
> foreigners. (The number one fear was young people.)
>
> > Do you honestly believe that the police have no grounds at all, and that
> > they arbitrarily picked on "chinese" out of pure racism and bigotry?
>
> Yes, considering the scale (small) of foreign crime and criminals,
Japanese
> officials and people should not put the blame for crime or increases in
crime
> on such a small portion of the population. Even just juveniles aged 15-19
are
> responsible for more crime, even killings (that police know of, of course)
than
> all foreign criminals.
>

How do you know this if a great many are illegal aliens?

> So in the US due to the high crime rate, and how a lot of it actually is
> attributed to black people, should the American police or FBI be telling
> Americans to call 911 if they THINK someone is Black, or hear someone
"talking
> Black" as Japanese were intended to call police if they SAW or HEARD
someone
> they thought was Chinese? (Note, I am not intending to promote
discrimination
> against black people if I refer to US crime statistics.)
>

You know as well as I do that would simply not pass here in the US.
On the other hand, I'd say that the fear (rightly or wrongly) that many
white folks
have of blacks is older, more ingrained than the fear of chinese that
japanese may have
today.

> You do not see a problem with this, or how such an attitude would be
similar?
> (With the obvious exception that Chinese or foreigners in general are
> responsible for a small part of reported crimes in Japan, not widely out
of
> proportion to their representation in the population.)
>

Why are citizens being asked to call the police? Is it not because, besides
the p;ossible crime,
the bias etc...that these chinese might be illegal aliens?
If so, there is nothing racist with pursuing illegal aliens. That's
something that the US should
have been doing ages ago, and only now coming around to address it.

> > > > What the poster said is true,.
> > >
> > > "Chinese people just pervert everything to make Japanese look bad"
> > >
> > > It is true? "Everything"? Even 51% or 99.999% is not "everything". I
would
> > use the terms "most things" or "almost everything", unless it was a
simple
> > generalization such as "Japanese have naturally dark hair".
> >
> > Come on Eric, the poster obviously didn't mean "everything" in a literal
> > sense.
> > It's silly to argue about that.
>
> Again, are you sure? That same poster today wrote
>
> "Everywhere they go, these chinese people seem to spread hatred, to the
> point that you almost understand why Japanese had to be so aggressive
> during the WWI and WWII toward the Japanese.
>

Yes I'm sure Eric. Otherwise everyone could be arguing ad infinitum
splitting hairs
never moving forward on any discussion.

> It's a scary thing when you to get to understand Japanese aggression
> and cruelty, by witnessing Chinese people's perversion."
>
It is indeed a very scary thought just imagining the degree of perversion
that
would be needed to juustify that degree ogf aggression.

> Even if it is a generalization or exaggeration, do you have no problem
with
> this poster or their view at all?
>

No I have no problem with this poster. It is indeed an honest description of
what I have seen
 on the internet. And if it sounds bigoted, biased, well they say truth
hurts.
Obviously I think that what the IJA did in China, not all of them mind you,
but some of them,
was an atrocity. But I'm not going to blame todays Japanese, the civilians,
the people born after the
war. Just like., and I'm going to admit it, I'm not going to go around
hanging my head in shame before
every black guy and every native american I meet because of what "some"
white americans did
well before I was born. I know what they did was wrong. But hey, that's
about it.

> "What the poster said is true"?
>
> > > "Japanese people are very honest about their feelings"
> > >
> > > Really? Even Japanese will claim otherwise. Not that they are liars,
but
> > that how they act or what they say depends on the audience and
situation.
> > Which
> > is why I asked the poster to tell us how to be sure Japanese actually
meant
> > yes or no, especially in a professional or diplomatic situation.
> >
> > Do you speak Japanese Eric?
>
> Yes.
>
> > The above is textbook material for a western book on Japan.
>
> What of it? Will you answer the question for the poster, or explain how
what
> they said is true?
>

I already agreed with the oroginal poster.

> > > "Even American people themselves wish they were born with blonde hair
and
> > blue eyes. Especially, American women."
> > >
> > > Really? Is that why hair dyes come in a variety of colors including
even
> > red, green or purple, and colored contacts also come in at least six
colors
> > also including purple? Because especially American women wish they had
been
> > born blonde with blue eyes?
> > >
> > > "In fact, blonde hair is something that every human-being wish they
were
> > born with."
> > >
> > > How strange that even Caucasian readers think otherwise.
> > >
> > Eric..in the US women HAVE been enamored with dying their hair "blonde".
>
> Only blonde?
>
No obviously not ONLY blonde. But with major movie stars being platinum
blonde,
well it weas only natural that it become a trend.


> > Look at all the big time accresses of the 50s and 60s. Admittedly this
was a
> > fad which still exists today but to a much lesser degree. But to respond
to
> > the
> > poster like they just made something crazy up is wrong.
>
> It's not crazy. It's just a wildly sweeping generalization which is how I
> responded to it.
>
You know Eric...90% of observations we make are generalizxations.
If you are going to question edvery little commonly held belief as being a
sweeping genberalization...well it's going to take a long time to move on in
this discussion.

> > > > the CCP made Japan-Hating part of their education, to the extent
that it
> > has gotten out of control.
> > >
> > > Yes, allegedly promoting anti-Japanese sentiment as part of Chinese
> > education is considered a problem by Japan,
> >
> > Actually it is considered a problem by China. Didn't you see the photos
of
> > Chinese police in riot gear beating the living daylights out of
anti-Japanese
> >
> > Chinese soccer spectators?
>
> In response to criticism about allowing such behavior in the first place
> allegedly due to concern over how such behavior or toleration of such
behavior
> would go over in light of the fact that Beijing will host the Olympics in
the
> future.
>
Can we stop playing Perry Mason, Eric?
Yes I agree with you that the CCP government was and is concened about
the 2008 Olympics.


> If China considers their education system or the content of their
curriculum a
> problem, they can change it so it is not considered "propaganda" by such
as
> Japanese.
>
> I don't know what "propaganda" the Japanese media are referring to.
>
> > > because Japanese policy makers prefer people, particularly their own
> > children, not to ever hear about most things that Japanese did in WWII
and
> > the half century before, or the details of them.
> > >
> > Sounds like you're own opinion there Eric. Unless you are or have been a
> > Japanese politician.
>
> Really? It is "my" opinion? So the reports of how Japanese textbooks are
> monitored and altered to avoid addressing Japanese wartime atrocities are
> untrue, and even the Japanese reporters and critics are just hysterical
liars?
> Then what is your own "opinion" regarding the reason Japanese do not (wish
to)
> dwell on how WWII affected OTHER countries? (They will take time out of
their
> regular curriculum to include "peace education" to hear from elderly
Japanese
> and others about how sad life was for Japanese or in Japan in WWII. Many
will
> even make a point of having their school trip destination Okinawa or
Hiroshima,
> to hear about the poor suffering Japanese. But how many (of course some
do)
> will hear from former Korean comfort women, survivors of Nanking, or their
> representatives?)
>

Eric....no country teaches all of their bad history inschool textbooks.
We were taught that the pioneers opened up the west to development
while occasionally exchanging hostilities with the "indians". We weren't
taught that
we massacred them, unarmed women and children, because our racial beliefs at
the
time didn't force us to consider that they were humans. We weren't taught
that we invented
scalping then claimed that it was an "indian" practice.
When we read about Vietnam we learned about the domino theory and how we
supported
the government of tjhe South and fought with the VC and the NVA.. We didn't
learn about
the way we were massacering whole villages.
Again I ask you...why do you seem to expect Japan do what other countries
don't either?

> > > Meanwhile, Japan is one of China's top trading partners, to the point
that
> > much of Japan's economic recovery is directly related to trade with
China;
> > hundreds of thousands of Chinese also go to Japan every year to study
the
> > language and business or even stay to work or settle permanently, and
> > Japanese culture and entertainment are also popular in China.
> > >
> > Absolutely true.
>
> Then the previous poster cannot also be saying something true about the
same
> issue.
>
> > > Yes, Japan hating has grown out of control in China.
> > >
> > So we agree on this.
>
> No, I was being sarcastic, because it is not true.
>

Up above you recognized that the Chinese police had to beat the
anti-Japanese soccer
spectators with sticks. You also recognized that it weas necessary because
China is preparing
to host the 2008 Olympics. And now you say that Japan hating is not out of
control?
Why then Eric, did the chinese police in riot gear have to beat up those
anti-japanese
chinese people? Eric...it is true that the anti-japanese sentiment, which
the PROC ingrained
into the populace (not allegedely, but ingrained) has grown out of control
to the extent that
it hinders, obstructs or otherwise clashes with current Chinese government
policy.
Ask anyone who is Chinese.


> > > "Prejudiced against all people who belong to other races"
> >
> > Well unfortunbately I don;'t fit that one. In fact most of the
definitions
> > don't really fit.
> > However I can assure you that everyone, ok,.most everyone. I've argued
with
> > has called me a racist.
>
> People call me many things here. Almost all are wrong.
>
> But I am curious why you would say or imply these negative things about
> Chinese.
>
> > > That's pretty serious. And I can't be sure of that about anyone I
know.
> > >
> > > > Just about everyone is to varying degrees, some pretentious ones
just
> > like to pretend that their shit doesn't smell.
> > >
> > > Correct. Which is why you should not be surprised or offended to have
it
> > pointed out about someone else, and why it makes a poor attempt at
insult
> > or to shock on fjlij when used on a Japanese man with a British PhD who
also
> > makes some simple generalizations about Chinese.
> >
> > I am neither surprised nor offended.
> > Who is the Japanese man with a British PhD, and just exactly
> > what does this persons acedemic credentials have anything to do
> > with this discussion or topic?
>
> It's from another thread which grew out of control, all because I asked
why
> someone was offended by another's assertions that Chinese are "more
emotional"
> "more political" than Japanese, or that they are prone to "exaggerate"
because
> that poster claimed that it must have some negative connotation.
>

I happen to think, that as a generalization, the above is true.

> > > But I notice that a person with a female Western sounding name avoids
any
> > criticism for a much more serious and sweeping negative generalization
> > about Chinese on said group.
> >
> > I don't know who this poster is, and like you, I have no idea as to
gender
> > or ethnic background.
> > But I have looked at the various responses this person has thrown
around,
> > and while some things are said with an air of certainty, I hardly see a
> > pattern of bigotry or racism. At least no more than anyone else.
>
> I beg your pardon. Again:
>
> "Everywhere they go, these chinese people seem to spread hatred, to the
> point that you almost understand why Japanese had to be so aggressive
> during the WWI and WWII toward the Japanese.
>
> "It's a scary thing when you to get to understand Japanese aggression
> and cruelty, by witnessing Chinese people's perversion."
>
> "Chinese people just pervert everything to make Japanese look bad"
>
> You see nothing out of the ordinary here, even online?
>

Nope. I can certainly say that I've seen far far worse.

> What if people said the same of recent Israeli policy and the Holocaust?
What
> if people said the same of US history, and more recent acts of terror
against
> Americans? Would you see a problem there?
>
Actually I have heard very similar things said of current Israeli policy,
and even
from some Jewish people.
And I've certainly heard things on the same level and worse said about
Americans
and American policy.

> If there is nothing wrong, or at least nothing out of the ordinary, why
does
> the Japanese man with the British PhD get crap for his posts (or others
with
> Japanese handles for their posts), while this poster with a western female
name
> does not need to enter into a hundred post argument to defend herself and
her
> anti-Chinese views?
>

Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, there are alot of people out
there
who happen to agree with her? Regardless of ethnic background.
Now remember that you don't have to be an apologist for Japanese WWII
behavior
in order to agree with her observations about Chinese posters and internet
users.