"Ernest Schaal" <eschaal@max.hi-ho.ne.jp> wrote in message

> Sorry, but you are wrong, very wrong. Children can be citizens, or they
can
> be non-citizens. The girl in question is a non-citizen.

She is a non-citizen and a non-national. Maybe for you,  citizen and
national
are equivalent, not for me. In my place, you become a complete citizen the
day you get the right to vote, the right to decide where you live, the right
to take a plane to where you want, the right to do all the legal stuff
yourself, etc. Nationality is a condition for citizenship. But there is also
a question of age (and of not being a criminal condemned for certain
things).

The legal status of children is different to that of adults. A child cannot
leave his/her family, migrate on his/her own to another country, make a
living, etc.

> Your comment implies that the citizenship is determined by the guardian.

Not at all.
I imply that a child is not entitled to apply for a visa and deal with
Japanese administration. It's
her guardian that does the formality.

It's the Japanese guy and his wife that asked the visa for their adopted
child.  The *right* is that of the Japanese guardian. His right to have his
child in his country, so he can do his duty of educating that child.

When the girl will reach the age of 18 or 20, as you say, that will be her
*right* (or absence of right) as a non-national. In that case, I agree with
you. Japan owns her nothing.

> > It's Japan duty to make it citizens and residents take care of their
> > children.
>
> The law according to CC? I am sure the Japanese government is shaking in
its
> boots.

Japan, like any country, do what they want. If they adopt kids and put them
back to the sea, the UN are not going to do anything, but I'll say they are
a country of assholes.

> > And well, it's better not to be a Japanese citizen. Like most
foreigners, if
> > I adopt kids, they'll be given a status to live in my country and even a
> > nationality after a little paperwork. If I were a Japanese citizen,  my
> > adopted kids would not even be sure to get a tourist visa to Japan.
>
> I don't know what nationality you are, but the above does not apply to the
> US, and to the best of my knowledge it would not apply to Japan either.

Ah yeah ? I have several US acquaintances that adopted children, all their
children have been given a resident status (dependent or something like
that)in your country imediatly after the adoption form was registered.
They've told me that was the rule, but maybe they don't know anything about
the subject. Do you have an experience of adopting a child and not being
able to obtain a resident status to allow that child to grow up in the US  ?
What did you do ? You've let the kid at the quarantine at the airport ?
And all those children I know have been naturalised after their American
adopting parents did the formalities. Certainly that's not automatic, but
that seems common.I was surprised to hear the twins adopted by an American
woman and a French guy were given the American nationality. They never lived
in the US, but it seems the mother did the paperwork for that, before
leaving. In fact, the French parts of formalities  were not finished when
the ephemeral mother disappeared and for a while my acquaintance's toddlers
where American nationals under custody of a French national. Well, he didn't
have to put them in the plane to L.A. , he still has them.
In France, my country the paperwork takes much longer than in yours
(Americans can sometimes adopt a foreign child in less than 2 weeks and
bring him/her back, my country's administration asks several months of delay
even if you are famous), but there is no case when an adopted child is not
allowed to stay in the country at least until the age of 18. For people
adopted at adult age or when their parents are still with them, it's
different.

And what I have said about Japan applies, it's this girl's case : adopted
but not given a resident status, not even till she is adult.
It's incoherent. Japanese administration should have refused the adoption by
the grand-father if they didn't want the girl.

CC