Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>
>> There are some organized forms of Buddhism and other religions in
>> Japan, but Shinto isn't a religion, it is a collection of beliefs.
>> There is a big difference.
>
> What is the difference, when Japanese may call Shinto a religion
> themselves?
>
> Are people who call themselves Shinto much different from early
> followers of Jesus who had few formal practices, were at times in
> clear disagreement over matters as basic as who Jesus actually was
> supposed to be, who his message was meant for or how to become a
> follower, and had no collection of official texts of their own until
> centuries later?

So Shinto is an early religion that is still developing?

>>>> Shinto is the religion, not the name of the follower. What are
>>>> Japanese saying in Japanese that you are translating as "they
>>>> consider themselves shinto?"
>>>
>>> In Japanese or English, they say "Shinto." They are not saying for
>>> example, "Watakushi wa shinto wo shinjimasu" or "I am a follower of
>>> Shinto." The words "Shintoist" or "shinja" have never come up.
>>
>> Exactly my point.
>
> No, that there are many people who call themselves Shintoist yet have
> no clue was my point.

"The words "Shintoist" or "shinja" have never come up."
"there are many people who call themselves Shintoist"

Which is it?

>> So it is a racial/culural label.
>
> Yes, that is apparently what it means to those who label themselves
> or Japanese so. I like how estimates of Shintoists in the US may be
> 1,000 in contrast to the universal Japanese claim.
>
>> It says nothing about religion, any more than saying all Japanese are
>> "Japanese" makes them believers of the religion called "Japanese."
>
> Like Jewish?
>
> If you still haven't noticed, I am the one saying Japanese religion or
> religious beliefs count for little by Western standards.

Yet you treat it like a Western religion by expecting it is based on some
central text that people should know a lot about.

>> Jewish is different, as you point out above,
>
> I pointed out no such thing. People may consider Jewish people Jews,
> or Jewish people may consider themselves so, simply by birth, despite
> no self identified Jewish person I've ever met saying they followed
> Jewish tradition.

You've never met a Jew who follows Jewish tradition? You need to get out
more. The point is, being Jewish is a bit different from being Christian or
Muslim, because it is also a racial distinction. Using "Shintoist" as a
racial distinction in this way is quite odd to me but it is an indication
that "Shinto" is much more closely tied with tradition and culture (the
point I'm trying to make here) than it is to some organized religion based
on a central text.

>> because it is also a racial/ethnic label.
>
> And according to some Japanese and foreign sources, being Japanese by
> birth is also being Shinto. I wonder if my children are Shinto, or at
> least Shinto kami.
>
>>> But the fact that they don't study them doesn't mean they aren't
>>> still based on them.
>
>> What I'm saying is that 1) there is no "religion" called Shinto,
>
> Yes, you are, but why not?
>
>> it is a system of beliefs and traditions, and 2) in any event, that
>> system of beliefs and traditions has almost nothing to do with the
>> Kojiki.
>
> Then I guess sources like the BBC are simply wrong:

The fact that a Western source is thinking in its own terms does not
surprise me.

> Here are six pages including beliefs and references to stories lifted
> directly from the early parts of the Kojiki I read.

Yes, thank you Eric. Allow me to quote from your own source:

"Some writers suggest that Shinto is actually not so much a religion as "the
seamless cultural-religious historical backdrop " in front of which the
various religious experiences of Japan are played out - " a backdrop which
transforms and interprets those religious experiences and imposes on them a
continuity that they would otherwise lack."

Sound familiar?

I've said what I have to say in this thread. We've entered the "point
repeating phase" and I'm getting bored.

Jeff