necoandjeff wrote:

> > Religion comes up, and when asked what they are, or what they
> > "believe" in, they may say "Shinto".
>
> This is a load of crap. The fact that most Japanese follow a bunch of
> traditions that have been labeled Shinto doesn't make them "shintoist" any
> more than the fact that I partake in the Christmas tradition makes me a
> Christian.

Well you see, that is one thing many Japanese I've known don't get about
religion and religious affiliation, which is how they may call themselves both
Shinto and Buddhist, yet actually being atheist and simply going through the
motions, and also how local survey on religious affiliation may arrive at a
total of well over 100% because respondents probably consider themselves Shinto
and Buddhist.

> Shintoism is not an organized religion, it's a recently coined
> label. In fact, I'll bet that the modern use of the word can be traced back
> to the time that foreigners came in and started asking the Japanese what
> religion they are.

What does it take to be or become a Shintoist? Is it harder than being Muslim?

> >> Do they refer to themselves as 神道教徒 or some such term?
> >
> > "Shinto".
>
> Shinto is the religion, not the name of the follower. What are Japanese
> saying in Japanese that you are translating as "they consider themselves
> shinto?"

In Japanese or English, they say "Shinto." They are not saying for example,
"Watakushi wa shinto wo shinjimasu" or "I am a follower of Shinto." The words
"Shintoist" or "shinja" have never come up.

> > It is Japanese authorities, who for example, consider each and every
> > Japanese person to be Shinto by birth, making Shinto one of the
> > world's major religions. I wonder if Japanese Americans or Japanese
> > who emigrated are also to be considered Shinto.
>
> What authorities?

If for example, I had access to my Japan Almanac 2004, I'd tell you the source
they got it from. English sources may also make such claims.

> The fact that people are labeled Shinto by birth should
> tell you right there that Shinto is not a religion the way we typically
> think of religion in the west.

You mean like Jewish?

I could have told you that, but it is Japanese people who do so, who claim to
be Shinto.

> >> In any event, the fact
> >> that such traditions are followed has absolutely nothing to do with
> >> the stories that are (primarily) found in the Kojiki.
> >
> > How odd then, that despite not having a holy text like the Bible, it
> > is claimed Shinto beliefs are based on such collections of stories.
>
> Claimed by who?

Sources you could find yourself by such as a Yahoo search for Shinto and
Kojiki, or Shinto and "religious text" for example.

> What are these shinto "beliefs" that everyone holds?

Other than going to the shrine at the "proper" time, donating money in
multiples of five yen, listening to chants, receiving blessings and clapping
the hands and bowing the head, what I am saying is precisely that most Japanese
"believers" don't know what they believe in (particularly when explicitly
admitting they do not know or believe but insist on going through the motions),
as opposed to people who claim to be Jewish or Christian yet do not study the
history or texts of their religions.

> >> Besides, the Kojiki was deemphasized following the war because of its
> >> perceived connection with nationalism.
> >
> > If Bush, Billy Graham and the Pope distanced themselves from the
> > Bible, and people who considered themselves believers were in fact
> > woefully ignorant (as is in fact the case), it wouldn't mean that
> > Christian beliefs or traditions did not find some basis in them.
>
> Christian beliefs find their basis in Christ and the new testament. There is
> no universal system of Shinto beliefs that are tied directly to what is
> written in the Kojiki.

Really. Then what do they believe in to call themselves Shinto or as I have
known them, actual priests and priestesses of shrines who may have gone to some
institution for formal training?

> The Kojiki is little more than a feeble attempt at
> history that was created to legitimize the rule of the line of emperors who
> ruled in the late seventh century.

Critics have said worse of the Bible.

> >> The only Japanese who are generally familiar with such stories
> >> nowadays are people with some scholarly interest in the topic.
> >
> > Still irrelevant if they call themselves Shinto yet know little or
> > nothing. As relevant as people who claim to be Christian and are
> > ignorant of the Bible or the language, culture and history of the
> > place and time.
>
> They don't know it because they don't need to.

It used to be claimed that Christians of the Middle Ages didn't need to read
the Bible themselves either, and many modern believers don't read either,
satisfying themselves with soundbites as may be provided during a sermon or on
a greeting card.

Did that make it true?

> There is little to no ties between the traditions we call Shinto and the
> stories in the Kojiki.

Critics have said worse of Christianity, certain denominations, or related
religions.

Where do you think the "little" came from?

> This is quite different from religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
>
> >> I'm not even sure if the right-wingers pay much attention to them.
> >
> > As a matter of fact, the nearest I know to one know, a local company
> > owner who explicitly claims that Japanese are "pure", that all
> > Japanese are directly descended from the Emperor and thus Amaterasu
> > Omikami, and thus are all gods themselves, is not only NOT acquainted
> > with the ancient stories as I described them from the website, but
> > says that his Amaterasu who is somehow god of all, has nothing to do
> > with that Amaterasu or those gods and that heaven which came earlier.
> >
> > I guess the beliefs of ultranationalists must be a religion in
> > itself, like some offshoots of Judaism or Christianity.

--
 "I'm on top of the world right now, because everyone's going to know that I
can shove more than three burgers in my mouth!"