John Yamamoto-Wilson wrote:

> > > There's not usually very much one *can* do.
> >
> > Call the police. Bring the victim to the police. If you think it is safe,
> > apprehend the person yourself.
>
> Um, how? Do I just say, in a very loud voice, "Police!" and expect one to
> suddenly appear on a moving train?

Use a telephone or go to a police box to report it, like regular people do.

> > > The first time I saw it in
> > > Japan, for instance, all I saw was one man *giving* another man a
> wallet.
> >
> > So how do you know it was pickpocketing?
>
> Duh, I knew how pickpockets operated, I saw the second half of the operation
> (passing the booty to an accomplice), I *might* have been mistaken but when,
> after ignoring my warning for ten minutes, a fellow passenger suddenly
> noticed his wallet had gone missing, I knew I had been right.
>
>  > > the perps had got out long before.
> >
> > Oh. And what of the police?
>
> What police?

One or any of the about 200,000 police officers working in Japan. Maybe your
community has some, too.

> By what powers, natural or supernatural, could I have conjured
> the police into this situation?

The telephone is a common method.

> Anyway, I couldn't even have sworn to the
> two people responsible. All I saw was a hand pass a wallet into another
> person's hand. I guessed at the faces matching the hands, but this was a
> crowded train. I could have been wrong. That's why pickpockets choose to
> operate in them; it's almost impossible to pin down the culprits.

So you mention two you've seen to far. Do you believe there are more, even on
just your train?

> > > The second time, I saw a woman relieved of her purse. I told her what
> I'd
> > > seen and who did it, but also warned her that he'd have passed it along
> to
> > > his friend by now, which was true enough; he emptied out his pockets
> with an
> > > air of aggrieved innocence to show he was clean.
> >
> > And what of the police?
>
> What police?

The Japanese police. Your local police. The one people go to when things are
stolen, for example.

> > Was it too dangerous for you have done something yourself?
>
> I *did* do something. I told you what I did.

If you see a person doing the actual "relieving", and it is not too dangerous,
you could stop them.

> The person who'd stolen the
> wallet had passed the goods on to someone else.

Too bad you aren't street wise enough to recognize the person who ends up with
the stolen items.

> Even supposing I could have
> put a half-nelson on the guy and frogmarched him to the nearest koban, what
> proof would I have had?

It's the job of the police or prosecutor to get evidence, even if you have
none. You know the truth of the matter.

> > > And before you fall back on your statistics, forget it. They just don't
> cut
> > > it. Most people in the UK have had something stolen at least once in
> their
> > > lives, but that doesn't make theft "the norm".
> >
> > Why not? How much is a norm to you?
>
> The norm is the norm. If you want it as defined by the dictionary it means
> "what is expected or regared as normal;

But what is "normal"? One could argue that crime in and of itself is not
normal. A lot of Japanese sure work and study hard, even willing to do so at
the detriment of family, health, and happiness. But it isn't "normal".

Try a percentage. If over three quarters of women respond to survey in a
national paper that they've been molested on the trains, that sounds like a
real serious problem to me. It was disgusting enough that women reported it
happened repeatedly or were victimized by several men at the same time.

> customary behaviour". It's normal
> and customary for people to read books on trains, it's normal for them to
> chat to each other, listen to their Walkman, doze off, etc., etc.. It is
> *not* normal or customary for them to approach people and relieve them of
> their belongings, and it is not normal or customary for them to approach a
> member of the (usually) opposite sex and start groping.
>
> Why is this so hard to understand?

Because you seem to be denying it is a problem, just because you or I have not
personally seen it happen.

> > > Eric, you just said it yourself; *you have never seen chikan behaviour*.
> >
> > Of course not, I don't ride the train. And so what?
>
> So why are you so damned sure that it is normal for people to be groping
> unwilling victims on trains?

Because it happens so much. Groping people is what chikan are famous for doing.

> Let me assure you, as one who uses them
> frequently, that such behaviour is very much the exception. It is not the
> rule.

You mean you just haven't seen it yourself, or don't know enough victims who've
told you about it.

> > Read, ask or hear about the reality, not just assume there are no chikan
> or few
> > chikan because you haven't seen any yourself.
>
> Eric, I am not assuming that there are no chikan or few chikan, I am just
> telling you <ear-trumpet html/ start> IT IS NOT THE NORM <ear-trumpet html/
> end>. If Ernest Schaal had said it was a problem, I'd not have disgreed, if
> he'd said it was a worse problem than in many other countries I'd have
> allowed him that, but when he says it's the norm he's going over the top.
> But, heck, believe him if you like, why should I care?

I don't believe I've told you what I think of him or what he says or believes
on this thread.

> > > To say that chikan is the norm for Japanese men is distorted and
> prejudiced.
> >
> > Depends on what the statement means. Does it mean that it is claimed that
> > Japanese men (generalization) are chikan?
>
> Well, that's what it means if you go by the dictionary.

We're not going by the dictionary, we're going by Ernest and what he said.

> That's why I've been
> attacking it as a form of prejudice. This is the statement I've been
> objecting to and you've been defending;

What am I defending? What I'm doing is questioning you.

> you judge for yourself:
>
> > In japan, chikan is the rule for men, not the exception. [Ernest Schaal]

I don't know what it means, and I didn't ask. It could mean that Ernest claims
Japanese men are chikan as a rule. Huh.

> Like I say, believe it if you like -

I didn't comment on Ernest's statement.

> I really couldn't care less,

You care enough to respond to numerous posters on it.

> and you
> are welcome to your views - but allow me to say I beg to differ.

You've already done so numerous times. What it seems you are looking for is the
last word, or some admission of wrongdoing.