"John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> > > I've seen more pickpockets
>
> Eric Takabayashi asked:
>
> > What did you do?
>
> There's not usually very much one *can* do.

Call the police. Bring the victim to the police. If you think it is safe,
apprehend the person yourself.

> The first time I saw it in
> Japan, for instance, all I saw was one man *giving* another man a wallet.

So how do you know it was pickpocketing?

> If
> I wasn't (don't sneer!) "street wise" I wouldn't have known what that was
> about. I didn't at the time speak enough Japanese to be able to express
> myself very clearly, and said something a bit garbled, like "Dorobou to
> omouimasu!" but no one paid any attention for about ten minutes. Then
> someone started going through his pockets and grumbling, but the perps had
> got out long before.

Oh. And what of the police?

> The second time, I saw a woman relieved of her purse. I told her what I'd
> seen and who did it, but also warned her that he'd have passed it along to
> his friend by now, which was true enough; he emptied out his pockets with an
> air of aggrieved innocence to show he was clean.

And what of the police? Was it too dangerous for you have done something
yourself?

> > I've never witnessed pickpockets or chikan.
>
> Thank you, Eric. Precisely my point.

Their job is not to be seen. It doesn't mean they aren't rampant.

> I doubt whether Ernest Schaal has either.

Irrelevant.

> So it's not just in my blinkered view of Japan that "the norm" for
> people in trains is to be snoozing, reading newspapers, listening to
> Walkmans, etc.,

And what of what you do not see but actually does exist?

> and it is *not* the norm for them to be either the
> perpetrators or victims of sexual groping? QED.

I wish you'd read the survey.

> And before you fall back on your statistics, forget it. They just don't cut
> it. Most people in the UK have had something stolen at least once in their
> lives, but that doesn't make theft "the norm".

Why not? How much is a norm to you?

> To say that chikan is the norm for Japanese men is distorted and prejudiced.

Depends on what the statement means. Does it mean that it is claimed that
Japanese men (generalization) are chikan?

> I really cannot imagine any of my male colleagues, my male students or my
> male neighbours engaging in such behaviour.

This is meaningless. Have you watched them at all times or asked them? Even if
none of the men you know do such things, how do you think any of the men you
know are different from the people who actually engage in molestation? See that
even men of supposed respectability such as businessmen, school officials, high
ranking police, or even high ranked politicians engage in such behavior.

> OK, I can't vouch for what
> someone might do if very drunk on the last train home, but to suggest that
> such perversion is mainstream is, frankly, pernicious.
>
> I'm not trying to say that sexual harassment isn't a problem here in Japan,
> and I am not condoning it in any way. On the contrary, I'd give very short
> shrift to any offender that ever crossed my path. But that's a long way from
> saying that it is "the norm" for Japanese men to behave like that.
>
> > if your eyes and ears were open like you said, you might notice that
> > the real Japan is not your own life.
>
> Eric, you just said it yourself; *you have never seen chikan behaviour*.

Of course not, I don't ride the train. And so what?

> How
> much more wide-open do you want my eyes to be here?

Read, ask or hear about the reality, not just assume there are no chikan or few
chikan because you haven't seen any yourself.

> > Why the clumsy attempt at deflection again? Yes, sexual harassment and
> > continuing inequality, among many other things, are problems in the US.
> [snip]
> > But we were talking about Japan, Japanese politicians, and Japanese
> > people and their problems, not America.
>
> How can I convey the point that *every* country has these problems, and that
> sexual harassment is no more "the norm" in Japan than anywhere else without
> making comparisons with other countries?

What is or is not the norm in Japan has nothing to do with other countries.

> We have someone saying that sexual groping is the norm in Japan. That
> someone is rude and racist and I'll bet there's a better than 50% chance
> he's kinpatsu, so he's very likely American (as you point out in another
> thread, these are apparently characteristics of the culture ;-)), so
> comparisons with America are surely germane to the discussion. And if anyone
> wants to start throwing mud at the Brits, or other nationalities, that's
> fine too. As I said before, no country comes out of this rosy.

And we're still talking about Japan, not the US or anyone else, or what the
norm is for anyone else.