Eric Takabayashi <etakajp@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> mtfester@netMAPSONscape.net wrote:

>> >> BTW, those men were war criminals.
>>
>> > Who is "those men"?
>>
>> Are you not following the thread, Mr Takabayashi? Do you not see the
>> names at the top?

> Lt. Calley is one man, the ONLY man to be court martialed AND found guilty.

So, who  was tried for Nanking by the Japanese?

>> > Check the caves.
>>
>> Any ones in particular, or is this another attempt to be dense?

> Check caves suspected of containing soldiers and/or civilians.

And since they had both civilians and military in them, what should they
do?

>> So, you have a magic way for the US to seperate out the former from the
>> latter, yes?
>>
>> Please tell us, do.

> Check who is inside the caves before attacking. No magic at all. 

"Yoo-hoo, any soldiers in there?"

"No, no, we're all civilians. Thanks for asking though."

"Oh, OK, well, we'll just be on our way then. Sorry about the trouble."

Just curious, you do realize that a considerable number of
Japanese-Americans DIED doing just that, don't you? Well, probably not,
or you wouldn't have suggested it as an alternative...

>> > Withdraw.
>>
>> Ah, so you would have the Japanese continue to murder Japanese, Chinese,
>> Indochinese, Burmese, Philippinos, etc.?

> No, withdraw from the dangerous caves until they understood the situation better.

So, let them stay in the caves, which may or may not have more than one
entrance, and hope that any soldiers in there would have the decency not
to go out said back way and kill them later.

Another sterling suggestion.

>> Uh, they did similar things, and such was not considered a crime. Again,
>> you have been told this. Again, you are not expected to understand.

> No, I will not bother understand killing of civilians when more can be done to prevent it.

Again, like what? You seem unaware that attempts WERE made to find out
who was in many of the caves.

> You once asked me how I would conduct a war.

> Actually, if I could decide, we wouldn't have any at all.

Well, then all you have to do is lay down and die when people are
shooting and killing your people.

How'd that work for the German Jews, BTW?

>> >> When I lived there, a movie about the firebombing opened, the first such
>> >> movie. Older people were seen exitting the theatre with tears streaming
>> >> down their eyes saying "someone finally remembered us".
>>
>> > That is precisely what I was referring to. Perhaps I got this from your post. Yes, because they had
>> > been forgotten.
>>
>> You claimed THEY themselves had forgotten.
>>
>> They did not.

> Why in hell would I claim that ANY Japanese forgot their OWN experience or suffering in WWII?

I give up; why did you?

>> > I said bombing an enemy city is a crime?
>>
>> And you were wrong.

> Bombing an enemy city is not a crime.

Good; progress of sorts.

> themselves. The extent of the damage and casualty are the issues. Note for example, I specify bombing
> "civilian areas" of Gifu in my post to Ernest.

Oddly, manufacturing is in "civilian areas" as civilians are commonly
employed in manufacture. They constitute valid military targets, even
though the people are not wearing uniform.

Again, this is by international agreement, agreements to which Japan was
signatory.

>> >> Again, SLOWLY, an enemy city is a military target.
>>
>> > Was the Continental US a military target
>>
>> Yes, and was hit by the Japanese in a coupla ineffectual attacks by the
>> Japanese involving balloons and submarines.
>>
>> Seriously, you are not that ignorant, are you?

> I know they were.

Then why your repeated questions about "what if" Americans had been
bombed?

> Your reaction to Americans being killed?

I'd rather it hadn't happened.

>>
>> Again, I have no idea why you are horribly confused by all this.

> I'd like to know if you support killing Americans while at war,

You are fabricating words, and associating values with them. This is
dishonest of you. I do not "support" killing Americans in or out of
uniform in a war. The question is whether these were crimes or not.

>> >> Yep; let 'em starve.

>> That's what was happening at the time.

> Yes, I have two copies of _Embracing Defeat_, though I only read the hardcover. I mean most or all of
> them dead.

Well, that certainly would have been better than what happened, wouldn't
it?

>> > As excellent as what was being done to Iraq, or what is being done to North Korea?

>> Sorry, what was the US doing to Iraq or North Korea in 1945? My history
>> books missed that...

> Were the modern sanctions on Iraq, or cutting aid to North Korea excellent ideas?

They may have been the best available options, but as it happens,
life does not often give you a choice between "excellent" and "bad".

>> >> > Screw it, they're mostly back in their own country, and go home.
>> >>
>> >> Right. What do you care about the Japanese murdering Chinese and Indochinese,
>> >> right?
>>
>> > It's an atrocity.
>>
>> But apparently acceptable to you...

> No, why? I simply said it was an alternative.

So was continuing to bomb the Japanese after the surrender, and killing
them off to the last man, woman, and child, but you did not mention
that. Thus, I can only assume you were offering what you thought were
better alternatives. If you were offering WORSE alternatives, then you
really have no valid complaint about the US actions.

>> > Yes. My own negative feelings regarding Japan and Japanese stem almost entirely from their history,
>> > and what little of it I know.
>>
>> Oddly, my negative feelings about them stem from their current actions.

> Only some of mine do. 

All of mine do.

>> My negative feelings about Imperial Japan circa 1925-1945 stem from the
>> actions of Imperial Japan circa 1925-1945. Unlike you, it seems, I do
>> not hold modern Japan accountable for the actions of Imperial Japan.

>> Now, quote me or withdraw the statement.

> I withdraw it.

Thank you.

> Let's start again.

> Why were Japanese civilians bombed dead by the hundreds of thousands,

Their government started a war with the US, and was unable to 
a) finish it on their terms
b) recognize early that continuing the war would bring  disaster
c) mitigate said disaster by facing the blindingly obvious after, say,
   May, 1945.

> and who is responsible?

The government of Imperial Japan.

>> > Would it be ok to kill US civilians the way Japanese and Germans were killed?
>>
>> They were. Perhaps your history books fail you here as well.

> I asked if it was ok with you

Nobody asked my permission.

Mike