(Note: Long boring post. I was going to use email, but might as well 
reply here. For those not interested skip thread or killfile me)

Simon wrote:
> "Declan Murphy" <declan_murphy@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:41C3F244.5070009@hotmail.com...
> 
>>Simon wrote:
>>
>>>"Declan Murphy" <declan_murphy@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>news:41C291CA.8060900@hotmail.com...
>>>
>>>>Simon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Declan Murphy" <declan_murphy@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>>>news:41C110DE.3060901@hotmail.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>Simon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Declan Murphy" <declan_murphy@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>news:41C02D36.200@hotmail.com...
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Another martyr for old Ireland
>>>>>>>>Another murder for the crown
>>>>>>>>Whose brutal laws may kill the Irish
>>>>>>>>But can't keep their spirits down
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Can't stop the bastards putting bombs in bins and killing children, a 
>>>>>>>proud heritage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Which song are those lyrics from?
>>>>>
>>>>>Irish terrorists like to sing about being victimised, they don't sing 
>>>>>about their innocent victims.
>>>>
>>>>Yes. It has always bugged me that instead of singing about an event that 
>>>>occurred (in this instance) about 85 years ago, Irish terrorists (on both 
>>>>sides) don't instead follow the shining example of their perceived 
>>>>adversaries and issue wordy press releases many years after the event. 
>>>>"It is with very deep regret that the Ministry of Defence confirms that 
>>>>the operation resulted in substantial collateral damage... etc" It would 
>>>>be so much more civilised.
>>>>
>>>>>Sorry to be a killjoy but it pisses me off when people quote bullshit 
>>>>
>>>>>from songs by terrorist child murderers
>>>>
>>>>Kevin Barry was a teenager when the British Army executed him. To the 
>>>>best of my knowledge he didn't kill any children. Given the behaviour of 
>>>>certain recent governments, this appears to have been a bad thing.
>>>
>>>He called himself a soldier, he was involved in the killing of 6 British 
>>>soldiers so he got what he deserved. Jonathan Ball, 3 years old, Tim 
>>>Parry, 12, did they get what they deserved?
>>
>>Barry was a soldier, involved in an ambush on enemy combatants. Instead of 
>>becoming a prisoner of war and returning to his medical studies after the 
>>war, he was executed. Not the dumbest thing done during the Anglo-Irish 
>>war, but certainly fucking close, and effectively guaranteeing the 
>>eventual end of British rule in Dublin. In the light of the tragedies that 
>>followed, there's a whole lot of pointless "what ifs?" Had commonsense 
>>prevailed and a political problem been dealt with at the time through 
>>pragmatic politics instead of repression and war, he probably would have 
>>become a doctor, the British Army wouldn't have fired machine guns at 
>>football crowds in Dublin, the Black and Tans wouldn't have burnt Cork and 
>>countless other localities, the civil war wouldn't have taken place, 
>>British paratroopers wouldn't have shot 27 civil rights demonstrators in 
>>Derry, and bombs would not have been placed in either Northern Ireland or 
>>England, including the disgraceful "collateral damage" in Warrington.
> 
> I'll agree with some of what you say but to call the victims of the 
> Warrington bomb collateral damage is ridicules, innocent victims were the 
> intended target.

No more ridiculous than most claims of "collateral damage", in NI and 
elsewhere. The PIRA should have known that targetting that shopping 
centre could lead to 2 innocent deaths. As with Enniskillen, it was 
beyond the pale and should never have been authorised. The British 
government likewise should have known better before colluding in the 
simultaneous bombings in Dublin and Monaghan killing 34 innocents and 
wounding hundreds in 1974, or in the Brian Nelson/Colonel "J" affair - 
colluding with the landing of weaponry from South Africa on the Down 
coast in January 1988, and in the murder of 160 people using those 
weapons between the landing and January 1993, including Patrick 
Finnucane. The authorities had prior knowledge of many of those attacks, 
yet did nothing. There has been a lot of senseless death & suffering.

> Innocent people have been killed on both sides but the difference is that 
> the Irish terrorists set out to kill innocent people.

Technically they set out to inflict economic damage on the "mainland" - 
the active service unit that set the bomb in Warrington had similar 
objectives to those that destroyed the Baltic Exchange. That they were 
callous in regards to possible civilian casualties, was indicative of a 
long, extremely dirty and (in my view) entirely avoidable war.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you give me the impression 
that you think "Irish terrorists" = IRA. An understandably English view, 
since only one side ever gets reported. Try to find a reference to say, 
the murder of David Cupples in the archives of the Guardian for 
instance. You asked me if I thought Jonathan Ball & Tim Parry got what 
they deserved? Of course they didn't, but at least their tragedy is 
remembered as it should be. http://www.childrenforpeace.org/
It is a pity that the 4 innocent catholic civilians who were killed by 
loyalist death squads in revenge for that Warrington attack are not.

I am amazed that this conflict continues.

It is 40 years since protestant paramilitaries attacked public utilities 
and tried to blame it on an almost non-existent IRA. It is more than 30 
years since the worst of the Shankill Butchers "any taig will do!" 
killings.
(see 
http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk/docs/terrorism/uvfshankillbutchers.htm - a 
protestant unionist site)

It is nearly 20 years since the Anglo-Irish agreement, and more than 10 
years since the main ceasefire. Yet only last year, the UDA planted a 
bomb at the Holy Cross Primary school in North Belfast - targetting 
school kids. The same school where "loyalists" from Glenbryn previously 
mounted a blockade, hurled abuse, bottles, stones and pipe bombs at 
pupils walking to school. God save the Queen! And for what? NI is just 
going to be a small irrelevant part of Europe. Utterly senseless.

The border has already gone, free trade and movement is in place. It is 
only a matter of time before NI is using the same currency as the ROI. 
There is no way back to the medieval statelet that was Stormont, to 
gerrymanders and electoral fraud, to rampant anti-catholic 
discrimination in housing, health, education or employment. At a time 
when ordinary suburbs in Dublin or London are talking about 
"multiculturalism", a mixed marriage in Derry or Belfast still means the 
marriage of two people from slightly different variations of 
Christianity. Its a sick society. All that is needed is a negotiated 
settlement that protects the rights of the minority - as should always 
have been the case - a settlement that would actually favour the 
protestants since they will probably eventually be that minority.

>>Constant tit-for-tat insanity.
>>
>>Despite 400 days of evidence from 900+ witnesses, it is still unclear 
>>*which* paratroopers shot the 27 civilians. Surely you aren't suggesting 
>>the whole regiment be charged? The men who committed the atrocities at 
>>Warrington have never been caught, nor at Enniskillen, though clearly it 
>>was authorised by Martin McGuinness since he was the CO of that area's IRA 
>>command. Surely you aren't suggesting that he be charged? McGuinness 
>>became the Education Minister, and the current peace process the best 
>>thing to happen since Michael Collins and sliced bread.
>>
>>Let it go. Write a song about it and have a drink.

 > Perhaps if Martin McGuinness hadn't fired at the
 > British troupes those 27 people would still be alive.

First up, 13 were killed. 14 recovered (to varying degrees of 
"recovery") from their wounds. Secondly, there is no evidence that 
McGuinness fired (Officer "E" of MI5, the former boss of renegade MI5 
officer David Shayler, told the Saville Inquiry that the agent 
"Infliction", whose testimony is the only evidence against McGuinness 
was of "mixed reliability" (ie - untrue), while David Shayler himself 
simply describes "Infliction" as being a "bullshitter"). Thirdly - no 
arms were found amongst the dead, wounded or arrested - hardly 
surprising since it was an unarmed civil rights march with a large 
contingent of nuns and housewives etc. Fourthly, independent observers, 
including eyewitnesses such as the journalist Simon Winchester (then at 
the Guardian) are on record as stating that they heard no shots prior to 
the army opening fire on the crowd.

It is usually forgotten that when the British Army was initially 
deployed to NI they were welcomed by the Catholic minority who hoped it 
would end violence against their communities and lead to a fairer 
distribution of community resources such as the public housing that 
their taxes were paying for. Political reform never came. Instead of the 
problem being dealt with through pragmatic politics, the army instead 
became an instrument of supporting a corrupt police force and unjust 
system. You mentioned the attacks on innocents during the conflict - it 
is also worth remembering each of the Army/UDR/RUC/RUC(R) members killed 
as well. 765 service personnel - who instead of being involved in a 
dirty war should have been investigating crimes, directing traffic, 
fulfilling British army duties in Europe and elsewhere etc. 765 men and 
women is more than the total KIA suffered in the Falklands, the 
(first)Gulf war, Afghanistan and the Iraq conflict, and every other 
British deployment in the last 30 years combined. Another tragic waste 
of good men.

-- 
Non gratum anus rodentum