"John Yamamoto-Wilson" <j-yamamo@sophia.ac.jp> wrote in message
news:bbi43f$99pdm$1@ID-169501.news.dfncis.de...
> Kaz wrote:
>
> > You mean it's like many Kinai people have moved to Tokyo, and then
> > Tokyo is now turning to be like the new Kinai?  I recall someone was
> > insisting that today's Kinai is Tokyo and not Kansai in
> > fj.soc.politics........
> > But I think they are still immature in many parts of their behavior.
>
> Well, most of the human race has yet to grow up! I hate to keep bringing
> this up, but calling people "wanking tokyojaps" and "disgusting dog-eating
> gooks" doesn't strike me as particularly "adult" behaviour.

No matter what I say, those Koreans and Tokyo folks would have just
thought a stupid Kansaijin or a barbaric Joppari Midget are ranting
something anyway.
But anyway, I'm a typical Kinai type, un-westernized introvert and I'm
usually mild but when I get real mad, I become wild. Those offensive
Koreans extremely hating us alwayd drive me mad.

> > i think those people in newer developped land like Kanto or Sepponia
> > often look wild and aggressive to Kinai type traditional matured
> > people. And that's why the Tokyo dialect is so offensive to many Kinai
> > people. Tokyo dialect often reminds Kinai people as the immature
> > rustics in undeveloped land. The conflict between Kansai and Kanto,
> > which has been lasted for long time in this country, is caused by such
> > language and social behavior issues.
>
> Rather like England, then, where it is said, "Every time an Englishman
opens
> his mouth another one laughs"?

Really? I didn't know that. Maybe like "Every time a Kansaijin opens
his mouth another one laughs"?

It's true that Kansai dialect(but I claim that this is the true
Japanese language) is felt as Manzai(comedy) language in many areas in
Japan.

> > Many Kinai people still can't
> > accept the sloppy behavior of Tokyo people such as making big noise
> > when they eat Soba, or eating sushi with fingers.....etc.
>
> I find slurping soba rather distasteful, but I hadn't noticed that people
in
> other parts of Japan do it less than people in Tokyo.

After the Edo era, especially the late period of the Edo era, Edo
civilization influenced people all over Japan more than Kinai culture.
And after the Meiji era, Tokyo culture conquered all Japan and their
behavior is spread all over Japan except Kinai. I think that's why you
see that kinda habit of slurping soba almost every where in Japan now.
Those Tokyo folks had defined the behavior of slurping soba as
"Iki".....stylish, a proper manner, just like typical Edokko like to
behave with the Edo tradition of being vain, their behavior of
respecting the "Iki" sense, which means acting cool, smart,
trendy.....

But that kind of "Iki" sense of Tokyo folks is completely strange and
unfamiliar to Kinai folks. Most Kinai people look down on that kind of
behavior as crude, wild, and in Kinai, as well as in Korea or in the
continent, slurping is certainly an awful table manner, and every
native Kinai person was disciplined as "not to slurp when you eat". So
one of the big culture shock a Kinai person will face when he goes to
Tokyo is seeing the scene that people slurping soba.

Nevertheless, nowadays, that kinda Tokyo culture is even invading
Kinai and I see people slurping even in Kinai sometimes, so I somewhat
agree with you.

If you ever check "okuni jiman" in 2ch net, you will find all those
conflict between Kinai(Kansai) and Tokyo, Kinai folks are despising
Kanto folks as savages because of such "Iki" culture including the
habit of slurping soba.
And it's not only me who blame them. Such conflict is quite a common
thing in this country.

> Are you sure this is
> just a Tokyo thing? Could we have a show of hands, please, from people
> living in other corners of Japan? Do they slurp their noodles or not
(spare
> us the sordid details; a simple yes or no will suffice!)?
>
> As for the sushi business, my understanding was that sushi was originally
> intended (in the 18th century or thereabouts) to be eaten with the
fingers,
> and that later on people became more fastidious and started eating it with
> chopsticks. Perhaps someone who knows more about the history of Japanese
> food than I do will set me straight. My observation, by the way, is that
> most people in Tokyo use chopsticks.

Sushi generally known today is originary called as "Edo-mae sushi",
and it's Tokyo style sushi. The original sushi is created in Kinai and
it's different from Edo-mae sushi. While most of Edo-mae sushi is raw,
the original Kinai sushi is all vinegared and nothing is real raw.
Kinai sushi was preserved food of the period when people didn't have
refrigeraters.
 
http://www.saikiya.com/sabazusi.htm
This is more like the original Kinai suhsi. Also sushi known as "Osaka
sushi" is very close to original sushi I think.
http://www.sushiman.co.jp/whatsnew/manjiro_1.html
http://www.sushi-japan.or.jp/aichi/kisaragi/osaka.html

And the most fish used in the Kinai sushi were blue fishes such as
mackerel, herring..etc. Because Tokyo(Kanto) faces the Pacific ocean,
they are not so familiar with such northern blue fishes but they are
more familiar with such tuna fish of the Pacific. Those herrings
caught in Hokkaido even brought by Nisin-sen(boat) passing through all
the coast of the Japan Sea and the Inland sea to Kinai in the Edo era.
That was called as "Kitamae fune". Herrings are originally used as
fertilizer for cotton fields in Amagasaki but after its preservation
method was created, it's become popular food in Kinai. And that's why
famous "Nisin soba" exists in Kyoto as its local speciality, even
though Kyoto is not facing sea.
http://www.digistyle-kyoto.com/restaurant/restaurant_j/91_j.htm

> > I was aware that many British dislike Sepponians just like Kinai folks
> > do to Tokyo folks with some complicated feeling structured by some
> > sort of envy toward the energetic new world and some sort of contempt
> > against the immature new world, two diametrically different sentiments
> > mixed together. Funny phenomenon common to both Kinai is that while
> > they despise those people in their newer lands as vulgar, such
> > pro-baseball fan like Hanshin freaks or some pro-foot ball freaks like
> > hooligans act really vulgar and wild. They both look like they have
> > nothing else in their lives besides being such crazy sports freaks....
> > because of the declination of their society and economy situation
> > caused by its shifting the main power to their new world.
>
> Yes, such feelings of dislike are complicated, contradictory, motivated
> partly by jealousy and undermined by equally (if not more) fatuous
behaviour
> on the part of the people who harbour them. How can the land that produced
> hooligans complain about the barbarism of the New World? And how can you,
> with all your appalling insults, say that Tokyoites are vulgar?

Tokyojaps insult Kansaijin more than I do to tokyojaps in here in the
real society though.

> Human beings truly are peculiar creatures!
>
> > Academically analyzing, I think the world's main power has already
> > moved to the Pacific sides. The common thing to both Tokyo and
> > Sepponia is they both face to the Pacific. Kanto-Tokai region is the
> > Pacific region of Japan while Kinai is more like the inland-sea and
> > the Japan Sea region which is facing to the Eurasian continent. Kinai
> > civilization has been looking down on the Pacific civilization ever
> > since the ancient times and the pacific world is a completely unknown
> > world to the Kinai civilization. Even in Sepponia, west coast facing
> > to the Pacific is more growing than the east coast of Sepponia. East
> > coast of Sepponia is getting like Kinai and is also declining. I
> > analyze there as Sepponian version of Shitamachi of Tokyo. Shitamachi
> > region of Tokyo has somewhat Kinai civilization which had been
> > transmited in the Edo era, but Tokyo has turned its civilization
> > centered in the other new side of Tokyo after the Meiji restoration.
>
> Well, I'll think about it, but I'm beginning to get the feeling that
seeing
> everything in Japan as analogous to things going on elsewhere on the
planet

To me, it's quite a sad thing to see the proof that our Tokyo folks
propagandizing to gaigin folks such as "slurping is a Japanese custom"
even though it's originally just a local Tokyo behavior.

> has its weak sides as well as its appeal. It does help to understand
things
> if one can find parallels and similarities, but it takes away from the
sense
> of uniqueness if one sees everything in terms of something else.
>
> I'll look at your analysis with more seriousness when Los Angeles (or San
> Francisco?) becomes the seat of the US government!

I think economically California is already more growing and expanding
than east coast.

> --
> John
> http://rarebooksinjapan.com
>


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