"DBM" <dbmacpherson@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:agc3e9$1d0$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
<Snip>

Some major snipping done here to keep the size down. I will
focus on the major points and summarise any big sections I snip.

> Err...  Mr Wignall, if Yui was born in 1977, & died in 2004,
> then she was 26 to 27 ish, not 17...

That was a typo, as I said in another post. She was 27 when
she died (according to the EoE theatrical program).

> And while Kaworu & Rei may have 'human-shaped' bodies,
> their bodies are NOT human...

Kaoru states in following in episode 24 upon meeting Rei:

"So you're the First Children? Ayanami Rei. You're the
same as me. We've both taken the Lilim's form as our
body to live on this planet."

It's not an issue that they have "human form". What is this issue
is where these bodies came from. Rei's is simple, we are told
directly that her body was created from the remains of Yui.
She has a human body and the soul of Lilith. Kaoru is a little
more complicated. He has Adam's soul, and we are told that
he and Rei are "alike". This goes into another whole line of
reasoning about the origins of Kaoru, his "birth" during the
Second Impact, and how he obtained Adam's soul. Suffice
it to say that he has Adam's soul, contained within a human
form. More on this below.

> Why not have Rei's 'birthday' the same as Yui's?

Why not have Pen-Pen's the same too for that matter, and Eva-01's
while we are at it. Megumi voiced them as well. It is stated directly
that Yui's birthday is the 30th of March, where as the EoE theatrical
program states directly that Rei's birthday is "Unknown".

> If Rei has no birthday, how DO you measure her age?

I would suggest you measure it from the date that she obtained
Lilith's soul. Rei is nothing without Lilith's soul. Each Rei, Rei-001,
Rei-002, and Rei-003 are defined by the time they existed with
Lilith's soul.

> If Rei#1 WAS only 5 years old at her death, then either the
> Clones age at a different rate to Humans, or else the Clones
> are of different ages to each other, as Rei2 looked about 14
> or 15 years old in the TV series.

I think Rei-001 looked 5 in episode 21. I think that after the
first Rei's death things were put up a notch. It was no longer
Gerhirn, doing research, it was now NERV, intent of stopping
the Angels, in order to do that a "battle ready' Rei had to be
created. I think that aged her 10 years in the space of 5 in order
to get her ready for the Angels return in 2015.

> ****Where does it say, 'Gendo created Rei...'
>
> I'm sorry - I thought this was a reference from the 'Red Cross Book'?
> I freely admit I may be wrong on this, but I've heard so many
> discussions that use this point that I sort of accepted it as
> 'Canon'. - If I'm wrong, I apologise.

That is never stated absolutely in the EoE theatrical program as
far as I can remember. If you can find the quote then it would
be helpful.

> ****Occam's Razor...
<Snip>
> It's just that if Yui was the Genius whose work was so VITAL to
> the creation of Evangelions, just what DID her work entail?

...the creation of the Evas...

The creation of Eva-01 out of Lilith's legs and the ultimate placement
of her own soul into it (which she knew would happen in advance).

> Could it be that Yui was involved in creating the absolutely
> vital Neuro-feedback devices, that link the nervous systems
> of the EVA & Pilot?

Sure she _could_ have been. She _could_ have been involved in
almost any aspect of the Evas construction.

> If so, Yui would need a series of 'Human equivalent' type
>  nervous systems to experiment with...

That's a rather large assumption, again, Occam's razor.

> She could use her OWN DNA to create the Rei Clones, &
> then use them as Guinea Pigs, skirting around Bio-Ethics, &
> all the snoopy paperwork involved with 'volunteers'.

And here is an even bigger, completely unfounded, assumption.

The point is really moot though, the EoE theatrical program states
explicitly that Rei's "body was created from the salvaged remains
of Yui Ikari _after_ Yui was taken into the Eva"

> If Yui WAS involved in the creation of a Neuro-link, then that
> could explain WHY she was involved in Piloting Unit 1.

Yui explains why she does it in the Japanese "video" version of
episode 21 (in the flashback to the  Lake Ashinoko Levee, Hakone
in 2003). She says she is doing it for "Shinji's sake".

Also from the end of Episode 26' it seems that Yui wanted to be the
"eternal proof that humankind has existed" within Eva-01.

> Of course, the use of Yui's DNA in the Rei Clones, if done
> by Yui herself, could have had ANOTHER significance...

<Snip big long explanation>

Again it is a moot point, becuase Rei was created _after_
Yui was absorbed, she wasn't created by Yui. In my opinion
she was an accidental side effect of the salvage operation to
retrieve Yui. Yui didn't want to come, so they got Lilith's soul
in Rei's body instead.

> As was pointed out, "The EOE theatrical program states that
>  Rei was created and _then_multiple clones were _prepared_
> in terminal dogma"

Not quite, it states that "Her _body_ was created from the
salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva,
and numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma
so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another."

It specifically states that her _body_ was created _after_ Yui
was absorbed. Yui was absorbed sometime after March 30th,
2004, so Rei was created sometime _after_ that point. This
wording is quite specific, I don't see how you can interpret it
to mean that the "character" of Rei was created at that point, but
the clones already existed. It states specifically that Rei's body
was created after Yui was absorbed.

> Speaking of which, Rei made the comment that Kaworu was
> as Human as she was (last two TV episodes)...  Kaworu made
> the comment that HE was composed of the same materials as
> the EVA's were (TV episode 24?), & presumably this explains
>  Kaworu & Rei's special abilities...

Again I don't think it's an attribute of the body, but rather the soul.
The AT Field is produced by the soul, not the body. More on this
below. Their "special abilities" as you put are a result of their special
souls.

> Quote attributed to Kaworu in TV ep24 from an earlier post,
> "Eva is made of the same body as me. Because I'm also born of
> Adam."  MADE... of the same body as me...  Kaworu, Rei,
> EVA's & Angels, ALL have non-terrestrial matter in their bodies...

Ah... _Everyone_ has "non-terrestrial" matter in their bodies. Lilith
is the progenitor of Humanity and she came to Earth along with Adam
at the time of the First Impact. A distinction needs to be made between
Adam and Lilith and the Children of Adam and Lilith (the Angels and
Humanity respectively).

Rei is _not_ a child of Adam. She has a human body and Lilith's soul.

Kaoru _is_ a Child of Adam, he is an Angel, "born" of Adam, who
also has Adam's soul. He has taken the Lilim's form though. The Evas
are cloned directly from Adam (they are not "children" as such), all
except from Eva-01 which was created directly out of Lilith's legs.

> The difference?  Rei & Kaworu are human-shaped, the EVA's
>  are sort of human-shaped, while the Angels are... whatever...

What makes you think that Rei doesn't have a human body?

> ****"How do you explain Ritsuko's statement that Eva-00
> was targeting her "without a doubt"?
>
> By the time Rei2 was piloting Eva 0, Ritsuko was already
> becoming 'uneasy' about whether or not Rei2 was more
> important to Gendo than Ritsuko was.  This comes to a
> head when SEELE asks Ritsuko whether or not she knew
> that Gendo had selected Ritsuko to be interrogated in Rei's
>  place.

That's episode 23, Eva-00 didn't even exist anymore at that
point. Ritsuko makes the statement that it was after her "without
a doubt" back in episode 14.

> Basically, Ritsuko comments were the result of BAD case
> of guilt, possibly inspired by sexual jealousy.

She says "machigai naku", she is a scientist, a logical person.
She hears Misato suggest that the target was Rei, but rejects
that idea and says it was after her "without a doubt". That is
about as absolute as you get in Eva.

> As was pointed out, "Ritsuko wasn't destroying the Rei clones
> because she wanted to destroy the Dummy System, she did
> it because she wanted to destroy Rei, to whom she had "lost" to."

Again, that was episode 23. At the time of episode 14 she had time
to think calmly about the incident, to reflect to it and the previous one
with Rei in Eva-00, and she stated absolutely, without any doubt, that
she was the target.

> ****So who WAS Unit 0 trying to kill?
>
> No-One at all...
>
> You will remember that when Unit 0 went berserk, Gendo was
> standing calmly at the window while it was punching the wall in?
> Gendo ONLY lost his cool when Rei's entry plug was ejected...
>
> Why would Gendo be so calm?  Especially when you consider
> that Unit 1 SMASHED through a wall in the Geofront to attack
>  an Angel. (Admittedly it was later in the show, but you still
> DON'T stand idly with your hands in your pockets when a
> Giant fist is coming at you!)

You will note that when this happened (in episode 19), Gendou
didn't react either, even when he was splashed and covered in the
Evas blood. He was calm then as well. That is the way Gendou is,
he was calm also in episode 01, when the girder flew up and
smashed into the window he was standing behind. He didn't
react then, why should he when Eva-00 hits the window in front
of him?

Again, Ritsuko states it was targeting her "without a doubt".

> ****Rei a secret from SEELE?
>
> Sorry, I have SERIOUS problems with that concept...

From episode 23:

----
Gendou: That's right.  Preserve the present status for the First
Children. No need to capture. This applies to the Second and
Third as well.  Just watch  them.

Fuyutsuki : Yet, if they find out Rei is alive, Chairman Kihl and
the others will blame us.

Gendou: I'll present something else to the old men of Seele.
There's  no problem.
----

Of course SEELE do find out that she is alive, but this indicates
that Gendou and Fuyutuski didn't want them to know about it.

> Proof!  Since Kaji is able to get into see 'Lillith', does any
> one REALLY think SEELE wouldn't know about the Dummy
> Plug system?

The Dummy Plug system doesn't imply anything other than they
are using "someone" as the base personality pattern for the Dummy's.
SEELE had their own system using Kaoru's personality pattern.

The fact that it existed doesn't betray Rei's secret.

> And just how long would SEELE stand idly by when their
> vital files don't have the info they want?

Gendou gave them Ritsuko to pacify them. Gendou held all the
cards in the end. He didn't want the lance because he didn't
need it. He had Rei, who could take him to Lilith, and he had
Adam as well. SEELE only find out about Kaji stealing Adam
around episode 21 remember. They are not omnipotent. Gendou
keeps secrets from them, and Rei is one of them.

> Let alone the little matter of Pilot selection by the Marduke
> Agency...  Even if Gendo is a part of the MA, there'd still
> be 'overseers' over him...

Gendou and Co _are_ the Marduk Institute. That is what Kaji
discovers in episode 15, the President of the Institute is non other
than Kouzou Fuyutsuki. They can choose whomever they want
to be a pliot. Look at Touji. Ritsuko just told Gendou that there
was a child whose Core could be prepared immediately and
Gendou said to appoint him to be the Fourth. There was no
discussing it with SEELE.

> Then there's Kaworu's talk with Rei, he didn't seem surprised
> that 'you're the same as me...' rather he seemed amused...

Kaoru is amused about everything. You can't take any of his
actions seriously anyway because he is told directly by SEELE
in the Japanese "Video" version of episode 24 that Adam's body
is in Gendou, yet he still goes down to Terminal Dogma and is
"surprised" that the being on the cross is Lilith and not Adam.

> Did SEELE want to know if Rei#3 ALSO had such,
> 'unnecessary emotional attractions' to others?  Bonds that
> MIGHT interfere with any plans SEELE may have?

Rei wasn't a part of SEELE's plan. They didn't care about her.
They say in EoE that because the Lance is lost they must proceed
with Eva-01, Lilith's soul clone. They didn't get the JSSDF to try
and capture Rei (like they did with Shinji), they only focused on
Eva-01 and the MP Evas to initiate Instrumentality. Rei wasn't
part of SEELE's plans like she was part of Gendou's. SEELE
didn't want to use Lilith at all after they had lost the Lance.

> Remember that when Shinji last tried to leave NERV, the
> core of Unit 1 was to be rewritten for Rei...

And also remember that post episode 18, Eva-01 wouldn't
accept anyone but Shinji. Not Rei, not the Dummy Plug, only
Shinji.

> ****Comment that Rei is a vessel for Lillith's soul, but still
> different to an EVA.
>
> Again, Eva is a vessel that contains another's soul...  Rei
> is a vessel that contains another's soul...  EVA is a 'Clone'
> of an Angel, & presumably composed of the same sort of
> 'exotic' matter an Angel is...

The Evas are clones of Adam though (except for Lilith) while
Rei's body was created fromt he remains of Yui. Rei has a human
body and the soul of the progenitor of humanity, Lilith. The Evas
are clones of a source of life (Adam, progenitor of the Angels)
(except for Eva-01) and they have human souls. Can't you see
the difference?

>  Rei admits Kaworu is as human as she is, & Kaworu
> admits he is made out of the same material EVA's are,
> THAT'S HOW HE CAN CONTROL THEM!

He can control them _because_ he is "born of Adam". Eva-02
is a clone of Adam and Kaoru possesses Adam's soul. Rei
is not an Angel, (unless of course you subscribe to the definition
that _everything_ is an Angel). Rei has a human body and the
soul of Lilith. Neither Humans nor Lilith are Children of Adam.

> What then, is the practical difference between a Rei Clone & An EVA?

As I said above. Rei has a human body and Lilith's soul, while the Evas
have bodys made from 'Sources of life' and have Human souls. It is the
soul that is important for creating the AT field and determining a being's
"pattern".

> ****Kaworu didn't get any help from Kyouko.
>
> When you borrow a car, does it help if you don't have to
> fill it up with gasoline?  Since Kyouko was IN Unit 2, even
>  hiding, her presence may have been some subtle aid to
> Kaworu, even if she did nothing to actively help him.

If anything it would be a hindrance. He says that "When
the unit doesn't have a soul, I can unite with it.". Eva-02
does have a soul but, as he says next "The soul of Unit
02 is shutting itself up now.".

> ****Sharing a soul.

I am focusing on the Eva universe here. To tell the truth I personally
don't believe in souls, (I don't believe they don't exist, I just don't
believe they do). In the Eva Universe however we _know_ souls
exist, but they are _only_ ever referred to as _the_ soul, never
"part" of the soul. Which is why I believe that within the Eva universe
a soul cannot be "split", hence the "imprint" theory, which creates
"duplicates".

Anyway I'm going to bed, night all.

--
Michael Wignall
"Tomorrow's just an excuse away..."