Kevin Wayne Williams wrote:
> B Robson wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Kevin Wayne Williams wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's technically closer to tresspass, but the differences are too 
>>> subtle for Kuri to understand, so I dumbed it down for him.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then you end up sounding dumb. Lying doesn't help understanding the 
>> topic.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> What practical difference do you see that is so damnably important, 
>>> anyway? The infringer is unjustly enriched, and the infringee is 
>>> unjustly deprived of income. 
>>
>>
>>
>> That last comment and Curt's analogy of stealing a watermelon suggests 
>> that something has disappeared which is completely bogus. 
> 
> The owner released the product on the condition that he would receive a 
> certain amount for each copy. Not giving that amount when the owner has 
> earned it (evidenced by you having a copy of his work) is not 
> significantly different from taking that amount away from him.

It is very different. By stealing something physical I have reduced the 
capacity of the owner to make the market value/economic value of that 
object. By copying something have I have only reduced his capacity to 
sell to me. Let me change the facts of a real story to make a point.

My music partner wrote a song and wanted it to have the same feel as a 
cover song done by Miss B Spears. I went down to the CD rental store to 
rent it and at home burnt a copy, cost me 200yen. The entertainment 
industry lies by saying I have stolen 3,000yen. But their loss is 
exactly zero. There is no way I would have paid 3,000yen or 2,000yen for 
that load of shit. In fact if the rental had been 500yen I would not 
have taken it. If I saw it for sale second hand at 200yen I would 
probably buy it so I "bought" that CD at roughly my own demand cost, 
roughly 200yen.

Now if I had copied Nine Inch Nails "Only" then they would have missed 
out on *my* sale of 3,000yen, although it's arguable that they may not 
have missed out on a sale at all.

Recently I thought I would buy the complete Police collection as I had 
all of them on vinyl. In HMV they were 3,700yen each. There is no way I 
am going to spend 3,700yen on an album that is 30 years old and I have 
already bought. I'll let you guess what I did.


> 
> 
>> If I steal a CD from a shop, the shop owner has lost that copy, the 
>> amount he paid for it and the profit - he no longer owns it and cannot 
>> sell it. However copying something does not subject the owner to a 
>> loss of title.
> 
> 
> It is still an infringement, and it is still wrong. A part of title to 
> something is the right to control access to it. Arguing that widespread 
> infringment may actually increase the economic benefit to the owner 
> through some kind of involuntary advertising (which is where I think 
> your economic argument is going) misses the point: the owner has the 
> right to control how his property is used, and no one is justified in 
> usurping that control.
> 

Yes, it is an infringement and there are serious issues with people 
downloading. But no, that is not where my argument is going at all. I am 
not sure but your use of the term "property" is probably wrong.

There are serious issues with copyrights. Disney and other corporations 
have managed to get Mickey Mouse protected by getting Congress to extend 
  copyright terms, which is highly ironic as Disney got started by 
ripping off public domain fairytales. Mickey should have moved into the 
public domain already.

As you well know (or at least should) the entertainment and software 
industries attempt to control the products they sell, attempting to 
licence rather than sell products. In Australia it is illegal to make a 
personal copy, even to transfer from one media to the other. Region 
codes are an attempt to segment markets. A lot of software has been 
rigged not to work outside the region it is targeted at. All this would 
be illegal in any other industry. I cannot buy an English version of the 
software I want in Japan and US based suppliers will not ship OS because 
of the licensing agreeements. Recent software I bought requires 
permission from a central server whenever I (re)install. Imagine a book 
publisher telling you how you can use your books!