"Michael Cash" <mikecash@sunfield.ne.jp> wrote in message

> >The funny thing is that all this discussion (between Eric and cc)
> >started with a misconception.

There is no discussion with Eric without misconception !

>>Namely, that to be fluent in Japanese
> >you need to "understand 100% of the Japanese culture". Nonsense.

You need such a definition to prove it's "impossible for foreigners" to
learn nihongo.
Eric made huge efforts to avoid telling what made Japanese such a special
language.

> >Speaking a language fluently means being able to speak it naturally,
> >"smoothly", without unnatural pauses, etc. I know many people who
> >speak fluent Japanese but who don't understand "100% of Japanese
> >culture", whatever that means.
>
> Bingo.
>
> How much correspondence is there between what constitutes "Japanese
> culture" between a Japanese of 91 and of 19?

-----Eric mode on

The old man was well educated, in good old time school systeme, he knows
100% of his culture. If the 19 yr old is not a chapatsu punk, he should now
100% of Japanese culture too.
Japanese culture is eternal, fixed forever.

-----Eric mode off

I suppose 15% at the best. How do you measure culture ? In degree Farenheit
?

When I was losing time in the linguistic department of my uni, I talked a
lot with a teacher whose hobby was comparing the vocabulary corpus used by
that or that sort of person in spoken language (you know they put micros to
record people during days and list all the words, then make stats). If I
remember well, in France, where the language is supposed to be kept in a
stable state by rigid institutions*, an average 90 yr old (my grand-father)
shares 25 % of his words with an average 15 yr old (my cousin.). Idem for
grammar structures.

Now guess what corpus of vocabulary is taught nowadays by Japanese teachers
of "furansugo"...

* At primary school, I studied grammar and spelling in books written in  the
30's. So I can spell very well the words I never use.

CC