Eric Takabayashi wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>
>> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>>
>>> The only reason I bring up atheism is because Japanese people claim
>>> to be something else, while perhaps explicitly claiming to believe
>>> in nothing.
>>
>> This is the kind of statement that drives me crazy. Who are you to
>> say they believe in nothing?
>
> Someone who explicitly asked, and may get explicit answers.

Doesn't give you the right to judge the accuracy or acceptableness of their
answer.

>> Many of them believe that they believe in something and that is
>> enough for them.
>
> Unless they claim not to.

So you are referring to people who explicitly claim not to believe in
God/gods/spirits, etc.? Then we are talking about atheists. But that's not
what you said.

>> Just because what they do believe in
>
> If they believe.

See above.

>> doesn't provide some explicitly laid out system of morals (the
>> notion that morals
>> derive from religion is a common misperception, but so be it), just
>> because their belief system doesn't require them to be a part of some
>> well-organized, well-funded religious organization, just because
>> theirs isn't a proselytizing religion that is hell-bent on
>> converting every last soul that would otherwise be condemned to
>> eternal damnation?
>
> How is your beef with "religious" people relevant to me? If I were
> "religious", and perhaps you mean like a Christian, I'd denounce it
> all as idolatry and the work of Satan, and that they are all going to
> Hell and in need of salvation.

I'm not claiming you are Christian but you own exposure to what is
"acceptable" in the form of religious behavior certainly seems to be
coloring your judgment of others.

>> I think many Japanese are quite sincere when they stand in front of
>> the coin box, yank
>> the chord, clap twice and pray.
>
> Sincere in what, if they explicitly claim not to know or believe?

If they claim not to know, they are either apatheists or agnostics. If they
claim not to believe they are atheists, which case they aren't claiming they
believe in anything. Quite different from your original claim. You're being
very inconsistent in what you say.

>> What more do you want from them?
>
> IF they claim to be Buddhist or Shintoist, for example, to know
> something about what they are doing or why, for example. Buddhists
> may claim to believe in some sort of afterlife or a system of reward
> or punishment. Perhaps they should find out what to do about it to
> get the desired result. While they may not believe in an afterlife or
> a system of reward or punishment, Shintoists might simply find the
> background of their beliefs interesting, if they knew something or
> more about it. If they then developed in interest in their claimed
> religion, they might even be inspired to be more active and find more
> enjoyment in it beyond simply doing what others do, while not
> actually expecting any results from a kami they do not actually
> believe in. It might be helpful, for example, when being so insistent
> about going to pray at some famous local or distant shrine, for
> example, they try to find out the name of the relevant kami, or what
> it is they are supposed to have power over. Why should one expect
> success at national entrance examinations, or safety while driving,
> praying to a local kami who promotes safe childbirth?

And who are you to judge this is being acceptable religious behavior? A
claim to be a "Shintoist" or Buddhist is all they need for the right not to
be considered an atheist by you. Anything more is between them and their
god/God/beliefs.

>> You don't have to accept their beliefs as being legitimate, only
>> they do.
>
> I fully accept their belief in no God/gods/spirits or indeed nothing
> they have not personally seen, touched or experienced is legitimate
> (never mind me bringing up the atom or a dead historical figure), if
> they are so explicit about it. What I find odd is their claiming to
> have a religion in spite of such belief in nothing.

Are you actually referring to someone who denounces a belief in the
supernatural and also claims not to be an atheist, or are you referring to
someone who believes something but just can't articulate it. The latter is
enough to have the right not to be considered an atheist in my mind.

>> And nobody has the right to refer to them as atheists
>
> What's your beef with the word atheist? What makes it "evil"?

Where did I say that I have a beef with it or that it is evil. I simply said
that someone who is not actually an atheist has the right not to be referred
to as such. What assumptions have you made in your question?

>> just because they don't happen to accept what they believe.
>
> I accept many Japanese don't believe or know about religion or
> God/god/spirits, because they may say so themselves. It's just odd
> they may claim they do have a religion.

People often use the term "religion" carelessly. What they mean is they have
a belief in something but just can't articulate it well, perhaps because
they haven't spent much time thinking about it. But again, just because they
can't articulate it well doesn't mean you have the right to refer to them as
an atheist.

Jeff