"John R. Yamamoto- Wilson" wrote:

> Eric Takabayashi wrote:
>
> > A survey in Osaka reports 71 percent of respondents
> > were victims, similar to what I have seen must have
> > been Tokyo on the front page of a national newspaper.
> > The survey I read about, as I said, I believe focused
> > on young women, teens and twenties.
> >
> > A government survey of unknown sample population or
> > location (but the article implies a national problem)
> > showed 47 percent of respondents have been victims.
>
> Hmm. Tricky thing, statistics. Why is there such a big difference between
> the two surveys, I wonder?

Age group of sample, and location, as I said, and as you would be able to
believe if you read.

> The second one would apparently put Japan women
> at *less* risk than their counterparts in the United States

Of being molested on trains? And why is the US suddenly an issue again? We're
talking Japan.

> (according,
> again, to statistics that may or may not be reliable); the second one puts
> them at *greater* risk.

Fuck John, why is your alleged personal observation, operating with your
current agenda of downplaying criticism of Japan or the severity of abuse of
women, any more trustworthy than the news or government? Why don't I simply
throw out everything you say about what what you believe regarding you are
demonstrably INCAPABLE of seeing on the ONE train you ride on?

> > Are you beginning to believe there is a problem greater
> > than you will ever see or know, John? Are you ready to
> > try looking for the real Japan yet?
>
> I'm pumping it all into my databanks, Eric! Please try to remember that what
> upset me and got me going on all this was Ernest's assumption of cultural
> superiority (the Japanese "have got a long way to go")

I'm not Ernest, and I'm not talking about Ernest. I'm talking about chikan in
Japan.

> and prejudiced view
> of Japanese men (for them "chikan is the norm"), and that my agenda all
> through has been to challenge the usefulness or appropriateness of such
> views, *not* to deny that there is any kind of problem.

You are denying or downplaying it, in every post including this very one, while
bringing up some other issue. If I didn't know any better I'd believe I was
dealing with one of the apologists I usually encounter in real life.

> Eric continues (quoting, I think, from his online library source):
>
> > The biggest unanswered question is why epidemic groping
> > should be such a peculiarly Japanese problem. Rush hour
> > trains in the cities certainly do become
> > claustrophobically crowded, but not so much more so
> > than in other countries. Samu Yamamoto puts itdown to
> > "the crazy attitude which Japanese men have to sex"
>
> I beg to differ. Sexual attitudes may play a part in this, and the attitudes
> of the men who do it, the women who put up with it without complaining and
> the society that lets it happen all need to be examined, but I would cast my
> net as wide as possible in looking for causes, rather than trying to pin all
> the blame in one place, which might actually *prevent* one from seeing other
> possible causes and solutions.
>
> Samu Yamamoto reasons along the same lines as Ernest

He is a confessed chikan. He lectures on chikan. Perhaps he knows something
about offenders like himself that you and I don't, but you are unwilling to
consider, because you have your own prejudice not to believe because you
disagree with it.

> and, as I say, I don't think it's terribly helpful.

What is not helpful is your continued denial with your fingers in your ears.
You are not even interested in looking into an issue you claim to be interested
in, on your own, and THEN reaching your own conclusion anew. No, it doesn't
agree with what you already think you've seen, therefore you refuse to consider
or believe it, and just try to poke it full of holes without investigating.

> Just in case you don't pick up on it in the other thread, I reproduce one of
> the more constructive exchanges I've had on the subject over the last few
> days:
>
> Brett Robson wrote:
>
> >> I have a slightly different take on it. There are the same
> >> number of deviants in Japan but no one has ever pulled them
> >> into line and they know they will get away with it. Given
> >> the same situation, a crowded train, I can't imagine trying
> >> That in Australia, the reaction of most Australian women
> >> would be "ballistic".
>
> That fits with the way I understand things. In Australia the counterparts of
> the Japanese chikan will be finding another (non-"ballistic") outlet. In
> South Africa they are raping their victims and then (frequently) murdering
> them.
>
> Rather than blaming Japanese men as a whole, or thinking that the percentage
> of deviants is - for some congenital reason, or something - very much higher
> in Japan than in other countries,

I make no such claim.

> it seems to me that what needs to be
> tackled are the *circumstances* which allow particular types of abuse to
> flourish.

Why? It is already something that other people (not you) can SEE or EXPERIENCE
now. And they still do not act on it. Why would they hold up maybe thousands of
other passengers and screw up the schedule, drawing public attention, just
because someone touched them?

> It may be true that the level of crowding in Japanese trains is not
> sufficiently different from that in other countries to explain why groping
> flourishes but, as I said in the other thread, surely the fact that Japanese
> trains, unlike trains in the UK, have no emergency stop cord, provides
> illdoers with a golden opportunity?
>
> In response to this idea, Brett wrote:
>
> >> Are you seriously suggesting stopping a train because of someone being
> >> touched up? Yes it is serious, but on my line there are over 100 trains
> >> between 7 and 9am. Stopping a train for 2 minutes would cause
> >> massive problems.
>
> To which I replied:
>
> > Well, yes, I suppose I *am* suggesting that. Doesn't this whole problem
> > arise from putting efficiency before humanity in the first place? Let the
> > letchers incur the bad vibes from the impatient hordes hurrying to get
> > wherever they're going *and* make them pay a fine for holding up the line;
> > that should make them think twice!
> >
> > Although, as a variation on the emergency stop, one could simply
> > communicate a message to the driver, who would stop at the next station
> > but not open the doors until guards/police were present. That would also
> > result in delays, but of a less drastic nature.
>
> I also imagine the people in the train compartment would be a lot more
> proactive in identifying offenders and ensuring they were handed over to the
> authorities in prompt and efficient manner if they thought that doing so
> would speed them on their way to their precious destinations.
>
> Can you see, Eric, that I am not trying to deny the problem,

You are.

> but I am not
> going to jump to conclusions about it, either?

You are. Your conclusion is, what you are hearing is not what you've seen
during ten years in Japan, therefore you cannot agree, nor can you believe that
men as you see around you are capable of committing such abuse, nor women as
you see around you, go silently without some sort of reaction to attract help,
and without seeking you out for help to convince you of the scope of the
problem.

> And blaming Japanese men, in
> particular, could be a red herring,

Why? It is their attitude and actions which cause it. Are you blaming the
victim?

> distracting people from very real and
> practical reforms that could help to solve the situation.

Here's one: teach men not to do it. That might cut down on sexual abuse by men.