Third time lucky... I am really going to switch from OE someday
to something actually decent.

"DBM" <dbmacpherson@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:agtj8g$eqf$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...

Please ignore the other smaller version of this post. It is
quite annoying when you send off your response before
you actually finish it. Here is the finished version.

> Quote...
<Snip Quote>>
> End Quote...
>
> Note I said "a head", followed by "a head & a 1/4" - I think
> I may have then confused you with the comment in brackets
> of '(Rei#2 head sizes)"
>
> I did NOT say 2 head sizes, & I apologise if my wording was
> confusing, I SHOULD have said, 'a head', OR 'head & a 1/4'.

Ah well in that case I disagree completely about that difference.
I was too lazy to actually check before, but now that you have
pressed it I have gone to EoE where the three Rei's are standing
over Gendou's body. Here is a screen capture of that scene.

http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~wignall/Trinity.jpg

I think this scene shows quite clearly the difference in size
between the Reis.

> By your OWN research, you confirm my observation that
> a character 1 head shorter than Rei-2 in a plugsuit matches
> the height of a 10-year old child.  I allowed the extra 1/4
> due to difficulties in measuring, as a maximum allowable
> error margin.

No I don't confirm your observation, I merely used your
stated observation. As I have shown above your stated
observation is clearly wrong. Rei-001 is only about half
the size of Rei-002 and Rei-003. She most certainly does
not match the height of an average 10 year old girl.

> If you conduct proportional analysis of the image of Rei-1
> standing beside Gendo, to the image of Rei-2 standing
> beside Gendo, you will find my calculations to be near
> enough to what I have stated.

If you look at the image of Rei-001 standing next to Rei-002
you will see quite clearly that you calculations are very much
different to how big each of them actually is.

Rei-001 is _very_ much shorter than Rei-002. She appears
to be much closer to a 5 year old girl than a 10 year old girl,
especially when compared to Rei-002's apparent 14 year old
body.

> Now the CORRECTION that another pointed out I
> should make!
>
> When I made the comment 'Chibi-Rei', I was referring to
> the Rei first seen standing beside Gendo when Naoko &
> Ritsuko meet Rei-1 for the first time.
>
> As was since pointed out to me, the term 'Chibi-Rei',
> while actually meaning 'little-Rei', is more commonly
> applied to the 'child' Rei seen in the train car sequences
> & in people's minds.
>
> I accept I made another error in wording, I apologise.

It is not a problem. I personally think of Rei-001 when people
say Chibi-Rei anyway so... ^^

> However, my error reminds me that I should point out that
> Shinji himself is drawn at several different stages in 'childhood',
> as a baby at his mother's breast, as the 'toddler' unwittingly
> waving 'bye-bye' to his mother, as the crying child deserted
> by his father, & as the 'Chibi-Shinji' on the trains, & in people's
> minds.

All of Asuka, Shinji and Rei are shown around the 4-5 year old
mark during the series in my opinion. Shinji when his mother "dies",
Asuka when her mother "dies" and Rei-001 when she "dies".

> Sorry, but I haven't conducted any sort of in-depth image
> analysis of the 'train' version of Chibi-Rei, but *IF* memory
> serves me correctly, she IS drawn in a more childish fashion.

The image I posted above is the clearest tool in my opinion to
compare the Reis. It is specifically designed to show each of
the three separate Reis, Rei-001, Rei-002, and Rei-003 who
for a time had had Lilith's soul.

> I will concede that the 'Chibi-Rei' on the Trains, & in
> people's minds may look more childlike than Rei-1 does
>  when first seen with Gendo, & may actually be of a
> smaller size than Rei-1 was when first seen with Gendo.
> Whether the drawing of the 'train' version is more 'childish'
>  looking, or for that matter, smaller in stature, is not
> something I feel confident enough to comment on at
> this time.

I personally didn't take the "train" Rei isn't account at all. I
can't even remember what she looks like to tell the truth, it
has been considerably more than a year since I last watched
any Eva. My statement that Rei-001 looks to be 5 years old
is based on her appearance in episode 21 (she is very small
in that episode, Ritsuko has to bend right down to talk to her)
as well as the shot in EoE that I have posted above.

> One thing that bothers me about the AT Fields in Terminal
> Dogma when Kaworu came a-knocking...  If Lillith's Soul
> generates her AT Field, then it appears to be in two places
> at once - one generated by the Lillith construct, the other
> generated by Rei-3.

I think both Lilith and Adam are exempt from the general rule
that an AT-Field is required to maintain physical form. We
are told that Kaoru is the only one with Adam's soul, yet Adam
maintains physical form. Likewise I think that Lilith can maintain
physical form without her soul. Adam and Lilith are sources of
life and thus I think the normal rules don't apply to them.

> Since Lillith already had so many small legs sticking out of
> her torso, this raises the question, was the Lance some sort
> of 'paralytic agent' that prevented Lillith from regenerating?

I think it is the opposite. I think it acts as a catalyst for the
regeneration.
Lilith "lost" her legs in 2004 (they were "made" into Eva-01). She
had been sitting down in terminal dogma for around 11 years before
the Lance was retrieved from the South Pole and Rei (in Eva-00)
stuck it into her (in the end of episode 14). Only 8 episodes later
Rei (again in Eva-00) pulls the Lance out and Lilith regenerates her
legs.

After sitting down in terminal dogma for 11 years without regenerating
it only took 8 episodes (a couple of months at most) with the lance in
her for her to be able to regenerate fully when the lance is removed.

> One of the things I have been interested in finding out, is the
> actual material construction of the Angels & etc - for despite
> Lillith being Humanity's progenitor, no human is her size, & it
> may appear, no human is composed of exactly the same
> materials she is.

Our form is limited by our minds. This is shown exceedingly well
in EoE where Lilith's body takes on Rei's form, takes on Yui's form.
The soul directly affects the physical form. If everything is essentially
made up of the same materials then the form is defined by the soul.
After all it is said that the Angels were given the "Fruit of Life" while
Humans got the "Fruit of Wisdom".

> No Human has the capacity to generate the powerful AT field
> that Lillith & the Angels do, & no human has an S2 organ.
>  Physics also come into things, with the questions raised by
>  potential differences in materials used as building blocks for
>  Humanity.

You can't say for certain that Humans cannot produce similar
AT Fields. Most humans don't even realise they have AT Fields.
Yui in Eva-01 produces an extremely strong AT Field. The ATF
is produced by the soul, just because most humans don't realise
they can project one doesn't mean they can't.

> As various religious texts state, Humanity was made from
> dust/soil. Meaning that whatever the force BEHIND our
>  creation, we are made of THIS world's materials.

Eva doesn't follow "various religious texts". It sets down its
own mythology (which isn't so much myth as "fact").

Adam and Lilith came to Earth during the First Impact.
The Angels are the children of Adam.
Humanity are the children of Lilith.

According to Eva dogma it seems that life on this planet
was brought about by the coming to earth of Adam and
Lilith. They didn't start out here.

> As proof?  All of the materials in a Human's body are
> found on Earth, even surprise, , such 'essential' ingredients
> as Strontium.

Just becuase they are found on Earth doesn't mean they were
generated here. They could quite easily have been introduced,
(say 4 billion years ago, at the time of the Great Impact).

<Snip Physics and Chemistry lesson>

I'm an Engineer; I did physics and chemistry both at highschool
and at University. I've played little games of boiling cold water
in a partial vacuum. How does this relate to Eva though? You
talk about the difference between Angels and the so called
"terrestrial" humans. What I am saying is that Humans, just like
Angels, are born from "sources of Life" who did not originate on
this planet.

So Ritsuko doesn't know everything about the Angels, that is
not surprising, they are beings from a completely different source
of life to humans. There are attributes about Angels that human
science (even the 2015 version) is unable to explain because
they simply don't have enough information. This doesn't mean
that _everything_ about humanity isn't similarity "foreign", it just
means that we have had a lot longer than 15 years to study it.

> One item of great concern, is the Angel's 'power core', the
> S2 organ that Shinji's EVA ate.  SEELE was somewhat
> upset about that little matter, & the question arises, were the
> S2 power organs deliberately left out of the EVA's for safety
> reasons?  Or, was the creation of the S2 power organ too
> 'complex' at the time of creation of the EVA's?


The Super-Solenoid theory was used to explain the power of
the "being" they found at the South Pole. Eva-04 was destroyed
while testing the S2 Engine, however SEELE finally managed to
use  the S2 Engines in the Mass Production Evas. I think it is
merely a matter of technological prowess. They knew the theory
they just had to make it work.

> I have made comments about 'non-terrestrial' materials,
> particularly since Ritsuko with all her equipment COULDN'T
> analyse some of the materials found in Angels.  Shinji's EVA
> ate the S2 power core of an Angel, supposedly 'assimilating it'
> as the EVA did the arm it tore off the Angel...
>
> Hang about?  Tore OFF the Angel?  Either Unit 1 changed
> the material of the Angel's arm during assimilation, or else
> Unit 1, the 'Clone' of Lillith & the Angels are created of the
> SAME material.
>
> The same materials that Ritsuko CANNOT analyse!

Again, just because she can't analyse it, doesn't make it any more
"non-terrestrial" than Humanities make-up. There are distinct
differences between the physical forms of the Angels and Humanity.
The Angels are born from Adam, they are made of different things
than Humanity is because of this. Adam and Lilith are similar but
different entities, their children likewise are similar but different.
The Eva are not Children of either Adam or Lilith but rather
direct clones of one or the other. Eva-01 is a clone of Lilith, in
fact Eva-01 was made directly out of Lilith's legs, which the other
Evas are clones of Adam.

It is also clear that matter can be formed and altered by the soul.
Rei, who possesses Lilith's soul, reshapes Lilith's form into Yui's
form. _Everyone_ who loses physical form can recreate themselves
around their soul from all the constituent materials that are now
floating around in the sea of LCL on Earth.

My point is, and has always been, that these "constituent elements"
which form life, though some appearing perhaps naturally on Earth,
are only brought together to form "Life" by Adam and Lilith, who
are wholly foreign, non-terrestrial beings.

I think this passage from episode 26 sums up what I am saying the
best. From the base starting point of _everything_ originating from
either Adam or Lilith, "alien" beings, we have this train of thought.

----
FUYUTSUKI: You can change yourself, as well.

GENDO: Because the thing that forms your shape is your mind,
and its interaction with the world that surrounds you.

RITSUKO: You can do anything here, because this is your world.

MISATO: This is the shape of your reality.
----

You will note that as this is said, the shapes portrayed are very
"Angel-like" in nature.

Plus of coures there is Misato's comments from EoE.

---
Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith,
who is the source of life just like Adam. We are the 18th
Angel. The other Angels are possibilities of what we might
have become - humans that gave up human form. Sadly,
we had to reject each other - even though we're all human...
---

Basically what I am saying is that just because some things
are unknown, it doesn't mean they are innately "different" to
what is known.

BTW, where from Queensland are you from, if you don't
mind me asking?

--
Michael Wignall
"Tomorrow's just an excuse away..."