cc wrote:

> "Eric Takabayashi" <etakajp@yahoo.co.jp> wrote in message
>
> > cc wrote:
> >
> > > Why does "fluency"
> >
> > Not "fluency," knowledge of their own language.
>
> Yes, fluency. Knowledge of a language. A second one. That was what we were
> talking about.

No, the lack of knowledge of young Japanese of their own language and culture,
which is a sad, sometimes scandalous thing.

And as for foreigners, knowledge of the local language would be really nice in
helping assimilate themselves to becoming citizens, as can be seen in the
naturalization requirements of Japan or the US.

> > > and knowledge of Japanese culture has to equate "being
> > > Japanese" ?
> >
> > Because such knowledge is more important than a simple piece of paper or
> where
> > one happened to be born.
>
> Except a few historical exceptions, what language you speak is unrelated
> with the obtention of a nationality.

We are not talking about simple nationality, a simple piece of paper or where
one happens to be born, we are talking about culture. Language is culture.
Japanese understood this when they forced Japanese language upon the Koreans,
and they understood this when denying "foreign" schools and their students,
equal status under the law.

And perhaps you have not heard of the local naturalization requirements. Try
becoming a Japanese citizen while speaking and reading only French or English.

> > By the families' own admission, those children have not known
> > themselves or their parents to be anything but North Korean; and quite
> > frankly, face a better life continuing to grow up as educated North Korean
> > elites, than as virtual aliens in Japan.
>
> If North Korean administration decides they are no longer North Korean,
> they'll have to go to Japan.

Yeah, "if".

Why "have to"? There are approximately 1,800 Japanese wives who accompanied
their Korean husbands to North Korea, yet they and their untold number of
children, are not entitled to leave the country and come to Japan, even after
near 50 years of hardship or wanting to leave.

> What they speak is not taken into account.

And in their minds, they will still be North Korean, because they've never
known anything else, and be in a very bad way if they come to Japan, as sorry
as many war orphans and their relatives brought over from China, as sorry as
many families of Japanese who've escaped North Korea so far, with language and
financial difficulties.

> > Perhaps you wouldn't mind young French people to be as ignorant as young
> > Japanese, or to feel as alienated as recently repatriated Japanese born
> and
> > raised abroad since WWII. Others would consider that a sad if not
> scandalous
> > thing.
>
> What message are you answering to ?

Yours. You are unwilling to recognize the link between language and culture, or
language and culture to identity and nationality.

> > > > Debito is Japanese, but people can readily tell he wasn't born that
> way,
> > > no matter how good he claims he sounds on the phone.
> > >
> > > Idem for Arnold Scharzenegger in California. And ?
> >
> > No, in the US, it is much harder to determine such a thing,
>
> It's hard to determine Swarzenegger's origine ?

Yes. He looks like a white man born in America.

> Certainly not. First, he
> didn't become American overnight, during many years, his social security
> number and green card number indicated he was a foreigner.

We don't see those. We see a white man with a minor accent. But many Americans
have much stronger, regional accents.

> Second, because
> Americans ask you all the time from where you come, where you lived, so
> unless you invent you a fictive life, and pretend you are American... Why ?
> Why pretending ?

Schwarzenegger doesn't have to pretend. He is American, and he looks it.

As for my ancestors and other ethnic Japanese people during and after WWII,
they had to prove their American-ness very quickly, because to do otherwise had
often unpleasant consequences. Looking too conspicuously Japanese abroad can
result in various unpleasantness even today.

> >because even his accent need not be a giveaway.
>
> Ah no ? You think it's not enough to have an accent -not even foreign- to be
> discriminated ?

No, and I don't know why you are becoming so defensive about race, language or
national origin. I am merely pointing out who in Japan is most likely to pass
for what Japanese would accept as Japanese looking - an Asian, not a caucasian,
and how Japanese concepts of their own uniqueness causes interesting and
sometimes unpleasant reactions, when they realize that the *perfectly* Japanese
sounding, acting and looking person in their midst is revealed to be not
Japanese like them due to the simple circumstances of their birth. Debito has a
hard time convincing strangers (and even people who do know him) he is
Japanese, because he looks the way he does. That is unfortunate, as when he is
discriminated against, but it is a simple fact.

> (I've never hidden my accent in the US, certain persons
> avoided me, and that's great, because they were exactly the ones I didn't
> want to talk to)

I don't say you have to. I'm just pointing out that Schwarzenneger is sounding
more like native born Americans with their various accents all the time, not
like he did 20 years ago when people openly lambasted his language skills in
the movies or even had his voice dubbed over; and that Japan born foreigners of
any ethnicity can sound just like native born Japanese speakers.

> Anyway, what I meant is Arnold decided he couldn't care less what people
> thought about him, and he assumed his origines. Even took advantage of them.
> I don't like the guy, but he had the guts to assume what he is.

In Japan, people who are not Japanese, or not Japanese sounding or looking are
still subject to unpleasantness. Resident Koreans may have learned the hard way
over their lifetimes, to pass themselves as Japanese, going so far as to take
on Japanese names, even if they are not willing to naturalize. I have known
some Koreans who are fiercely proud of their identities, who declare themselves
to be Korean or NOT Japanese, as soon as I've met them. But I have also known
Koreans who revealed their nationality to me only months and years later, who
want to keep such things private.

You're proud of who you are? You're free to reveal it and don't care what
others think?

That's nice. Real nice. Because unless you'd like to educate me otherwise,
French aren't generally known in Japan to be abused as badly as Asian looking
people, nor do French have bad reputations among Japanese. They aren't
denounced as criminals and potential criminals as Chinese are, nor cursed or
assaulted for being Korean. There aren't organized campaigns and media warnings
to look out for French and French looking or speaking people, as there are with
Chinese; and we don't see daily news stories and television shows to tell us
how bad the French government is, to cause French in Japan to be viewed with
suspicion or even threatened with death or assaulted, as happens with known
Koreans.

> > Just today, I signed up at a new video rental two blocks up the street
> > offering video and music rentals for TEN yen each. When the man asked me
> for
> > ID, I handed him my alien registration, as I usually do, just to see what
> he
> > would do.
>
> Why do you care ?

Because Japanese care, and even I have been discriminated against simply for
being a foreigner. Showing people my alien card up front, or hiding my identity
until it is later revealed, allows me to test people.

> > there was an immediate and visible change in his demeanor,
>
> Ah yeah ? They see imediatly I'm a foreigner everywhere. At the best 1% of
> the people are hima enough to notice me and stare 2 seconds before deciding
> I'm not dangerous or whatever. The people with 'strange reactions' are not
> so numerous.

That is because where you are, people are more enlightened about foreigners. Or
perhaps they are simply too busy.

I have personally witnessed people shrink back, and actually run screaming from
various foreigners. And when it occurs to a Korean, a Chinese, a Brazilian, or
a Japanese-American, with the ability to pass for a Japanese, I know it's not
because we are so big or loud or scary looking. It is purely because of what is
in their minds about foreigners. I know Japanese who explicitly express their
racist views concerning Chinese, Koreans, and other foreigners, which they may
not do if they knew foreigners were around. I also see how people may suddenly
react *positively* to me, simply because they find out I am American, when they
did not care less that I looked and acted like another Japanese.

> > for
> > example, he asked me if I wanted my alien card back to copy down my
> personal
> > information, as if I didn't know my own address or how to write it after
> seven
> > years. How stupid does he think foreigners are?
>
> I'm a stupid foreigner. I don't know my gaigin number by heart. I need to
> copy it.

I don't know my gaijin number. But it is unnecessary for my video membership.
We are talking about my ADDRESS. The man asked me if I wanted my card back to
copy my ADDRESS, after he suddenly realized I was a foreigner.

> > real estate agents
>
> The sort of people you meet once in a blue moon...

And very important, unless you'd like to risk homelessness.

How many times does one have to face discrimination or racism, before it
matters to you? It took me months to find this place, with people refusing or
hanging up the telephone on my wife (I deliberately had her make the inquiries)
nearly as quickly as they were informed I was a foreigner, with even the
landlord who accepted me giving me a long lecture upon first meeting me; and
I'd prefer not to go through that again, though I must in the near future.

> > And I registered my name there in my Japanese kanji, if anyone cares.
>
> IMHO, they couldn't care less.

Japanese do. Try registering your name in kanji at city hall.

> > didn't
> > feel the need to have a katakana or romaji membership card to make people
> > notice me unnecessarily.
>
> I've noticed that in Osaka, many nihonjins write their name in kana or
> romaji on such cards. At the sports club, we write the time and name when we
> check in, most names are in kana (2/3 katakana, 1/3 hiragana) or romaji,
> only a few in kanji.

I am talking about more formal forms of ID, which are harder to alter, simplify
or falsify.

> Anyway what that makes people notice you ? You're ashamed of being a
> foreigner or what ?

No, I'm proud of being a foreigner.

I want to avoid discrimination, particularly now that I am married with
children. I don't need them pointed out as the children of a gaijin, or gaijin
themselves, among racists.

> > No, fact. If Japan were one of those countries which allowed people to be
> > citizens by birth, such people would be Japanese already.
>
> If they had accepted.

And Japan does not, because they are an exclusive country, with birth,
nationality, race and identity issues, which is precisely the point.

> > > Also possible that if Japan had been more opened, they'd be
> > > millions of foreign residents, like in many other countries.
> >
> > And what would be wrong with that?
>
> Nothing.

Precisely, though I do hope they assimilate to some extent, by for example,
learning the language and other things to allow Japanese to feel more
comfortable.

Now convince Japanese there would be nothing wrong with 30 million foreign
laborers plus their families, in Japan for the sake of their economy, national
pension, and taxes, as the UN recommends.

I try. And I have found zero supporters, even among those resident alien
Koreans and Chinese, and people who whine about the economy, national pension
and taxes.

> And those people could be native speakers of Japanese, and they
> could be it
> without being/feeling/wanting to be Japanese.

I don't want to be Japanese. I just want to be left alone by such as English
beggars, groupies and racists.